C2C Balance Thread

[Sgtslick]

Im playing with slightly reduced </iTechCostModifier> and these settings in CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml.
Give it a try if your curious, its a bit different than default but I like it. It forces decisions in terms of what buildings to build and these decisions aren't just about what order to build them in - plus I find this tech speed much more satisfying, I'd probably play a faster speed such as a modified marathon if I wanted to turn tech trading off, just personal preference I guess.
<Type>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_SNAIL2</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_SNAIL_HELP</Help>
<iGrowthPercent>750</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>450</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>700</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>1000</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>1000</iResearchPercent>
<iBuildPercent>600</iBuildPercent>
<iImprovementPercent>625</iImprovementPercent>
<iGreatPeoplePercent>625</iGreatPeoplePercent>
<iCulturePercent>625</iCulturePercent>

 

[ls612]

@ls612,
I disagree. Hunters where as much warriors as anything else. And to make them successful against melee units you have to Actively seek the melee promos over the Animal/hunting promos.

I believe hunters are fine as they are now.

JosEPh

But they can get soooooo much XP from combat in the early game compared to almost any other unit, so I think they can eventually become OP to the point of being game-breaking.

 

[JosEPh_II]

IF you play with Unlimited XP!

If you do not choose that option they work just fine.

This unlimited XP stuff just gets plain overboard. You can get Barbs coming at you early game with 5 promos! Or an aggressive AI can come at you with 7+ early game. Rather ridiculous at that time imho. I just shake my head and wondered. Till I saw a Japanese city with 15 units in it on my border with 5 GGs! Wow! Luckily I had elephant, horse and Bear riders. If not he would've overrun me in a heartbeat.

The Promos are neat and all but quite frankly there are too many. It just gets messy after awhile.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

IF you play with Unlimited XP!

If you do not choose that option they work just fine.

This unlimited XP stuff just gets plain overboard. You can get Barbs coming at you early game with 5 promos! Or an aggressive AI can come at you with 7+ early game. Rather ridiculous at that time imho. I just shake my head and wondered. Till I saw a Japanese city with 15 units in it on my border with 5 GGs! Wow! Luckily I had elephant, horse and Bear riders. If not he would've overrun me in a heartbeat.

The Promos are neat and all but quite frankly there are too many. It just gets messy after awhile.

JosEPh

Hmm... someone tweaked with how they use GGs and it looks like they are being used far more wisely now.

Honestly, since the ai was never able to do this, we could never get a challenging game out of them.

Promo lines will compound down to only showing the most recent soon... Combat lines are doing this now but Koshling and I are restructuring how this was done because, lets face it... I'm a coding noob

But it should clean things up a bit (though gives room for other promotion types to start entering the picture so it may not make them show much less.)

I'm also looking to hide some information on mouseover of a stack unless a hotkey is depressed. That should help to clean things up as well.

But if you're not a fan of infinite xp, that's cool... Thus why its an option. In truth, xp isn't ever limited, but the main difference here is that if you promote, under normal conditions, your unit goes back down to 25xp, wasting all its progress and basically starting over (although it keeps its promotions so it means you'll never be promoting THAT unit again... lol) I found this so frustratingly ridiculous that the option simply had to go into the game.

A noteworthy change to that this option is that on Infinite XP, you no longer have access to the promos that offer an ability to break the xp earned limit from barbs and animals... its an ability that's on by default under this option now.

I personally love getting as many promos as possible.

And if you're talking about promotion options being too much... whew. I wouldn't have thought anyone would ever complain about too many promotions being in the game. I just have to say... you ain't seen 'nothin yet! You know how many buildings we have in relation to how many vanilla had? Should soon see a fairly similar ratio with promos.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There needs to be further refinement before more get added please.

I'm not totally against Unlimited XP (I believe I have it on for this current game). But when ppl post examples of a unit with 120+ XP and they then raze a competing Civ with just that 1 unit that's not good gameplay for me. Nor for the Mod I think. And it's been happening.

Also with all this extra XP by the time you get a Hero unit it's not really a hero anymore now is it? Kinda kills SO's vision of what a Hero is supposed to be in the game. But this is another subject on balance.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

There needs to be further refinement before more get added please.

What kind of refinement are you looking for? How do you feel the current ones need improving?

I'm not totally against Unlimited XP (I believe I have it on for this current game). But when ppl post examples of a unit with 120+ XP and they then raze a competing Civ with just that 1 unit that's not good gameplay for me. Nor for the Mod I think. And it's been happening.

I don't like the strength of one unit on its own being able to overwhelm massive numbers with ease as they currently can either but limiting their xp and promotions is not the way I want to address it. I have something entirely more effective in mind to make units carry a lot more power when properly backed up by comrades in arms.

Also with all this extra XP by the time you get a Hero unit it's not really a hero anymore now is it? Kinda kills SO's vision of what a Hero is supposed to be in the game. But this is another subject on balance.

JosEPh

Interesting point, but it goes to show that the most powerful were not always the one that got the loudest appraise. Usually 'Heroes' emerged based on the story, publicity, and situation of their lives, where entire units may have achieved some notoriety, regardless of their prowess, they more often faded into the annals of military history while the deeds and exploits of the Hero lived on, growing more and more embellished with each telling of their tales.

 

[ls612]

There needs to be further refinement before more get added please.

I'm not totally against Unlimited XP (I believe I have it on for this current game). But when ppl post examples of a unit with 120+ XP and they then raze a competing Civ with just that 1 unit that's not good gameplay for me. Nor for the Mod I think. And it's been happening.

Also with all this extra XP by the time you get a Hero unit it's not really a hero anymore now is it? Kinda kills SO's vision of what a Hero is supposed to be in the game. But this is another subject on balance.

JosEPh

I looked at it a bit and saw that the Tracker line had only -20% City Attack, which seems like not enough. I'll go and change that to -75%, that should stop one unit razing an entire civ.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Only for the Tracker line ls612. And Trackers/Hunters are not always the the problem, although it's been reported. You can get a Spiked Club or Atlatl unit and with the animal promo buff either up so that when you upgrade to Axe and Archer or Javelineer they get more buffed so that the next upgrade for these units is stronger still and by the time you get to the next upgrade you have a Civ Killer. Didn't anyone see this coming? Maybe that's why Sid had units loose some of their Promotions when they upgraded to the next level? Not every thing that is Core Civ or BtS is bad.

In another thread you mentioned Ambushers getting the Dodge and Precision promos. Has anyone thought of a way to kill them (and rogues/thieves/Assassins) when they get inside your city? If you have 7 of these babies parked inside of your city and they won't leave nor can you kill them it's OP. Even moreso now with the expanded promo lines. These Str 3 units are now the equivalent of a str 7-10 unit. And if you catch one in a forest or even worse on a Forest or Jungle hill throw in the 75% defense bonus and you have to suicide multiple Str 7 normal mil units to even kill one. But if there are more than 3 of them on that hill Holy Cow! If you can catch one on a grass/plain/desert/dune/barren tile you can kill it. But if it has even a 25% tile bonus oh my.

Ambushers are extremely tuff now. They are much better than a Rogue. Rogues you can still kill on a hill.

I guess what I'm trying to say is what can you do to get an ambusher out of your city? And why hasn't a method been devised to be able to kill enemy Ambushers/thieves/rogues/assassins stationed in you city. Shouldn't there at the Very least be a function that works like a Spy getting discovered?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Only for the Tracker line ls612. And Trackers/Hunters are not always the the problem, although it's been reported. You can get a Spiked Club or Atlatl unit and with the animal promo buff either up so that when you upgrade to Axe and Archer or Javelineer they get more buffed so that the next upgrade for these units is stronger still and by the time you get to the next upgrade you have a Civ Killer. Didn't anyone see this coming? Maybe that's why Sid had units loose some of their Promotions when they upgraded to the next level? Not every thing that is Core Civ or BtS is bad.

JosEPh

Not promotions lost but XP so it takes a long time before you can get the next promotion since you have to get up to where you were before the upgrade. I almost never upgrade my trackers to hunters or hunters to rangers but build the new lot from scratch and have the old ones patrol my borders.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@DH,
Okay the XP, but that doesn't seem to apply now does it? Not that I can see.

Other ppl have used (and posted about it) the system to Upgrade a tracker to Hunter to Ranger and get a Civ killer out of it. And you can do the same thing with a clubman too.

Maybe we should reinstate the XP loss when you upgrade?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

To reinstate that, simply don't use the infinite XP option.

However, all matters mentioned are being given means to rebalance under new options and Combat Mod details. I'll try to advance my introduction there further later tonight or tomorrow morning so you can see what I mean.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm learning to adapt. Those pesky Ambushers of Hirohito that was plaguing me I finally killed 5 of the 7 that has clogging up my new city on Hiro's border. It took a 12 Str Hero and a Bison rider with melee promos. But I had to wait till they finally decided to move out of the city (still need a way to expel ambs/rogues/thieves/assassins from your city once they are spotted).

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

(still need a way to expel ambs/rogues/thieves/assassins from your city once they are spotted).

I have a plan. If it works it has numerous applications in this discussed stealth arena.

I want to make it so that if one nation's unit overlaps an enemy's unit on a tile (the status between a hidden nationality and anyone else), then if either unit can effectively see the other, it can do an 'Ambush' attack during its turn (or at any time on multiplayer).

Thus, a Rogue hiding in a city could be Ambushed by a dog who sees him (in this future mod setting I envision that just because one of your opponent's units sees your unit doesn't mean all of his units can still.)

And/Or a Rogue could ambush the stack in the city he's in.

But most importantly, you can set traps with invisible units, waiting for the enemy to unknowingly step onto your location where you then proceed to ambush.



Also, the Strength in Numbers game option will make it pretty near pointless for any solo unit to be able to attack a city or stack very effectively, except perhaps in the case of an assassin taking out a healer, etc...

This is in the mod now but it still needs to be set up in the xml before I can enable the option.

 

[zeinul]

I'm still using previous version and I'm liking it so far. It had small issues but overall it's so much fun to play can't stop even to upgrade the version. Right now I got to the point when there only four major powers. And two of them ahead of me in score.

 

[ls612]

I'm learning to adapt. Those pesky Ambushers of Hirohito that was plaguing me I finally killed 5 of the 7 that has clogging up my new city on Hiro's border. It took a 12 Str Hero and a Bison rider with melee promos. But I had to wait till they finally decided to move out of the city (still need a way to expel ambs/rogues/thieves/assassins from your city once they are spotted).

JosEPh

The Thief line should already have -50% City Attack. Maybe they should also have -50% City Defense.

 

[T C]

The problem that Joseph is talking about is the fact that once a thief line unit is inside your city, it's impossible to remove it. Giving -50% city defence to them doesn't solve that problem.

 

[ls612]

The problem that Joseph is talking about is the fact that once a thief line unit is inside your city, it's impossible to remove it. Giving -50% city defence to them doesn't solve that problem.

Yeah, it does, because you can then kill it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And if you are not at war they can just walk into your city.

 

[ls612]

And if you are not at war they can just walk into your city.

Hm, maybe there is a new outcome in the making here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yeah, it does, because you can then kill it.

Please explain how to do this?

Cause right now you can Not kill one that is in your city. I've tried repeatedly. Take a stronger unit out of the city then reenter hoping to cause a conflict with the hidden unit does nothing. Once it's made it into the city it's untouchable. So tell me in detail how to. You can't. Cause it's not possible. Even if you gave it a -100 City defense.

JosEPh