C2C Balance Thread

[Koshling]

People were complaining that there was too much crime in the beginning of the game. That the Public Stoning and stuff was not enough. This is why I added them. However I did already have plans for such buildings. You should have posted this in the crime thread.

Also some of the housing line already has . In fact people are complaining its too much .

I apparently cannot keep anyone happy since some say too much crime and and too little and absolutely hate - and -. Its very hard to balance a massive game like this especially since each game is different and people play differently.

Ideally I would like to have the game balanced where your wanting to play one more turn and your not quite winning, but not hopelessly burred either. Where you are rewarded for thinking ahead and adapting to the game. But also penalized for neglecting or ignoring things. Such as Crime or Flammability.

So yeah we want to both challenge the hardcore civ fans but also get new players hooked and not frustrated. And as SO says "Just have fun!"



It might be a good idea to add say a level beyond deity level ... "Chuck Norris" level.

Shouldn't be needed. We have plenty of levels, just need to slide the scale a bit, or non-linearise it a bity (either way)

 

[Hydromancerx]

It was a joke.

 

[Sgtslick]

I understand what your saying hydro. I think what im wanting is more scaling of penalties. Such as with your housing line. Yes there may already exist such penalties, but these should increase in line with the difficulty, and perhaps not exist at lower levels.

Perhaps some additional penalties should be introduced such as more xp required for promotions. Lowered tech diffusion on higher difficulty. Lowered tech steal when conquering, longer riots, more wastage for food. Some wastage for hammers would be good too. Im not sure of the answer, just suggestions is all. Perhaps the thing to do with the difficulty is to slide it across 2 levels, so diety now becomes Emperor (without the 2 settlers ofc) and two more increases introduced with some additional penalties. There might be a problem with noble (ai level) needing to be dropped down to warlord or something I don't know..

 

[Sgtslick]

Having said all that, Nimi just is attacking me with horseman and I mainly have only stone axeman I only just got atl-atl's not long ago. One horseman can kill like 10 or 15 axeman it seems..
Lost my whole army to like 4 horseman, gonna have to load awhile back lol

 

[Taxman66]

I posted a suggestion (and eventually reposted it in Crime & Punishment thread upon request), to have the Crimes be based off a formula. That way you can implement scaling penalties... Reflecting City size (i.e. production) and Severity of Crime (i.e. Crime level).

For example:
If Named Crime > Minimum Threashold (or 0?) Then
(Crime Level - Minimum Threashold) * Modifier * Gross city production
**Modifier = somewhere around .0005 **


That way the crime isn't overly punnishing on low value cities wherein a static crime penalty overwhelms the cities

Conversly, rampent crime in a developed high value city would be much more painfull. Example 1: Crime Level 450, with a Minimum 100 Crime Threashold at a 300 production city would yield:
(450 - 100) * .0005 * 300 = 52.5 penalty

Example 2: Crime Level 450, with a Minimum 100 Crime Threashold at a 25 production city would yield:
(450 - 100) * .0005 * 25 = 4.375 penalty

 

[Sgtslick]

WTH my atl-atl with anti-horse promotion have a 3.48% chance vs a horseman.. How am I suppose to defeat horseman, they freely pick at fortified atl-atl with anti-horse upgrades in a city with the +25% fortified bonus, +20% anti-horse, +25% natural anti-mounted bonus, +10% for prehistoric city walls, +20% from Combat2. The horseman often come out unharmed or with very little damage.. Is this a bug or are they just this imba?

 

[Taxman66]

Maybe they have anti-archer promotions? Try Spearmen, even if they are stone spearmen they are better vs. horsemen than atl-atls will be. Even better would be elephant riders if you have access.

 

[Koshling]

WTH my atl-atl with anti-horse promotion have a 3.48% chance vs a horseman.. How am I suppose to defeat horseman, they freely pick at fortified atl-atl with anti-horse upgrades in a city with the +25% fortified bonus, +20% anti-horse, +25% natural anti-mounted bonus, +10% for prehistoric city walls, +20% from Combat2. The horseman often come out unharmed or with very little damage.. Is this a bug or are they just this imba?

Post save with description of where the attack takes place and I can have a look see why. Latest SVN I presume?

 

[Sgtslick]

Maybe they have anti-archer promotions? Try Spearmen, even if they are stone spearmen they are better vs. horsemen than atl-atls will be. Even better would be elephant riders if you have access.

Ok, so stone spearman get +50% vs mounted AND +50% vs animal, and they're melee so horseman don't get there inherent +25% vs archers nor the +20% vs archers from bamboo. Ok ignore my

 

[JosEPh_II]

WTH my atl-atl with anti-horse promotion have a 3.48% chance vs a horseman.. How am I suppose to defeat horseman, they freely pick at fortified atl-atl with anti-horse upgrades in a city with the +25% fortified bonus, +20% anti-horse, +25% natural anti-mounted bonus, +10% for prehistoric city walls, +20% from Combat2. The horseman often come out unharmed or with very little damage.. Is this a bug or are they just this imba?

I wish my Horsemen faired that well! It took elephants with +20 Str and +20 archery or an extra +15 City attack to even hurt an atl in a fortified city. My Camel Riders and Horsemen with even +15 City attack just nicked them. It was Elephants with +20 str and +15 city attack on top of their +25 (total +40 City attack) to out right kill a city fortified Atl. I suicided my horse and camel, Then hit with elephant and did mop up with Stone ax and mace.

So I have just the opposite.

JosEPh

 

[Sgtslick]

My stone spearman coming out at 7.80 (horseman) vs 6.45 (stone spearman), compared to my atl-atl which was 4.20.
Keep in mind this is with full fortified bonus, combat2, anti-mounted promotion, a frontier outpost, palisade, and a sentry post - for another total +25% defence. He has a riding school and stable and bamboo armourer and stuff too so his horseman pop out with like 10xp and free speed promotion.
This reminds me, don't you think riding school is a bit too strong? +2xp, free speed promotion and 50% decreased hammer cost for just about every horse unit in the game. I think it should be reduced to 20% decrease in hammer cost, 50% is super strong.

 

[Koshling]

My stone spearman coming out at 7.80 (horseman) vs 6.45 (stone spearman), compared to my atl-atl which was 4.20.
Keep in mind this is with full fortified bonus, combat2, anti-mounted promotion, a frontier outpost, palisade, and a sentry post - for another total +25% defence. He has a riding school and stable and bamboo armourer and stuff too so his horseman pop out with like 10xp and free speed promotion.
This reminds me, don't you think riding school is a bit too strong? +2xp, free speed promotion and 50% decreased hammer cost for just about every horse unit in the game. I think it should be reduced to 20% decrease in hammer cost, 50% is super strong.

In my current game my religion is Tengriism. I just got to horse archers. They pop out with two religious promotions, and 3 elective promotions, plus speed, plus commando. Mounted infantry and horse archers certainly rock for sure, and with Tengriism all the more so. Perhaps a bit too much indeed.

 

[Sgtslick]

I don't mind so much the free xp and free speed promotion, its the 50% reduction in build time that seems way over the top.

Yes, totally. I think there's something wrong when anyone but a small elite can be competative on diety

What is need is for players who have situations in which the AI makes a clear mistake (vague strategic errors don't count - a definate tactical mistake you observe I mean) to post save games of the previous turn's autosave, and descriptions (and ideally BBAI logs too, but saves where it reproduces are the main thing). Those with BBAI logs running who are play-testing and active here could also check the AI stats periodically and see if they can see things going awry.

I think I see a small tactical error here. He has 4 trained dogs in his capital but none in his other 3 cities, I think he may be moving some to them next turn. His new city with like 5 workers around it is particularly vunerable to rogues
Oh hey where are the BBAI logs again? Or the ones that you would like?

 

[Koshling]

I don't mind so much the free xp and free speed promotion, its the 50% reduction in build time that seems way over the top.


I think I see a small tactical error here. He has 4 trained dogs in his capital but none in his other 3 cities, I think he may be moving some to them next turn. His new city with like 5 workers around it is particularly vunerable to rogues
Oh hey where are the BBAI logs again? Or the ones that you would like?

Assuming you have them turned on in both the INI file (general log enabling) and the BUG options (logging tab, BBAI logging to level 3), then they are in the Logs folder with all the other logs (My Games/Beyond the Sword/Logs usually) named BBAI.log.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Having said all that, Nimi just is attacking me with horseman and I mainly have only stone axeman I only just got atl-atl's not long ago. One horseman can kill like 10 or 15 axeman it seems..
Lost my whole army to like 4 horseman, gonna have to load awhile back lol

This is good news then. Before Horsemen were almost useless. Use some stone spearmen next time to counter horsemen.

In my current game my religion is Tengriism. I just got to horse archers. They pop out with two religious promotions, and 3 elective promotions, plus speed, plus commando. Mounted infantry and horse archers certainly rock for sure, and with Tengriism all the more so. Perhaps a bit too much indeed.

Actually your playing with synergy of the Tengriism. You can still get owned by polearm units but its a lot harder to kill them. If you had a horse culture like Sioux or Mongolian you could totally dominate. However there are some powerful polearm culture units that could take you out as well.

 

[Koshling]

This is good news then. Before Horsemen were almost useless. Use some stone spearmen next time to counter horsemen.



Actually your playing with synergy of the Tengriism. You can still get owned by polearm units but its a lot harder to kill them. If you had a horse culture like Sioux or Mongolian you could totally dominate. However there are some powerful polearm culture units that could take you out as well.

I have the Chinese culture (Manchurian??) that gives me special horse archers

 

[strategyonly]

I have the Chinese culture (Manchurian??) that gives me special horse archers

Your DARN lucky to get that, i have tried and tried, to not. The AI is working better at it, some bit . ..

 

[Koshling]

Your DARN lucky to get that, i have tried and tried, to not. The AI is working better at it, some bit . ..

It's the only culture inhale managed to get, so I am hero less.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I missed out on getting Tengrii by 4 turns. And it's been along time since the AI has beat me to it. The adjustment to the AI regarding Religions is doing it's job.

Luckily I captured 3 elephants and had a city with ele in it's borders. I also captured 2 camel. I had 1 horse resource. By placing 1 of the elephants in my capitial and making ele herds this allowed me to pump out enough ele to take out my neighbor the Tupi.

1st time in a long time that I've wiped out another Civ before 3000BC.

I now have my continent to my self and have picked up Incan, Toltec, Cree, another culture since then.

Now I have to get to Caravels to find the rest of the AI, hopefully before they find me.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

It's the only culture inhale managed to get, so I am hero less.

I have been there before withOUT any Heroes(till about Renaissance Era), boy they do make alot of difference, but i am not even half way satisfied with them yet, i just cant place my fingers on what i want to do with them