C2C Balance Thread

[DRJ]

I'm also for a changing of inflation. However, I advocate a reform rather than disabling it altogether.

Think of something like the wasted food mechanism for money. Once you have very high income/turn there would be something like a -% of that. There would also be a -% on what you have as surplus on the bank. For example: you have 100 k Inflation would be 2,5% turn, it would make you lose 2500 whereas if you only had 10 k on the bank you would lose 250 instead. Your income is 3000 /turn? Inflation of 2,5% will leave you 2925 With income of 300 /turn you would still get 292 .

The questions to discuss could be: shall your bankroll (for example 100 k) be "taxed" by inflation
as well as your income? I plead for yes.
Shall you have inflation if you run a income deficit? Also yes - as long as you could run a surplus if you had other science /spy rate. Example:

Spoiler :

you have science at 100% and run a 100 deficit, wheras if you had slider on 0 %science you would make 1000 suprlus /turn. =>Your 2,5% inflation would then be 2,5% of 1000 = 25 , which would effect your shown deficit with a 100% science slider to be -125 instead of -100.

In Civ, Inflation could be adjusted to the bankroll - the higher your income is and the bigger your account is, the higher the inflation gets.

Example:

• if income 20 /turn = 5 % income inflation => -1 => income = 19
• if income 200 /turn = 10 % income inflation => -20 => income = 180
  ---------------------------
  
• if bank account 200 = 2 % account inflation => - 4 => account after inflation= 196
  (+19 = 215 )
• if bank account 2000 = 4 % account inflation => -80 => account after inflation = 1920
  (+180 = 2100 )

If you compare the little income with the 10-times higher income you see that the end sums are 215 and 210(0). No large effects in this example, but should show how inflation could help balancing out --
to simulate the problems the rich citzens of economical superpowers have to find save ways to invest all their money, desperate as they are, nowadays they're even pay to get danish bonds as I read a few months ago...

The inflation mechanisms would be flexible this way rather than being stuck in getting higher and higher, it would be adjusted to the actual economic situation in the empire - much like a shifting (economical) landscape with weather and catastrophic events lol

 

[JosEPh_II]

Name me one recent scientific progress that was made in any monastery worldwide.
At some time they should become tourist attractions, archeaolical lab could get bonus if they are in city, rest of the bonuses in my opinion are not suitable after the age of Mendel.

Cultural bonus of monasteries I think should stay but somehow depend on the civc (lower in secular societies).

Do you enjoy destroying all the Fun in this game?

I don't give a flip about proving anything to you. I don't have to, nor will I, even attempt to. I bet if you had your way all religions would be ripped out of the game right now.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

I reduced inflation across the board on the SVN, but especially for Epic gamespeed, as it really needed it.

Also, could we please not insult each other? Good. This mod is supposed to be "just have fun", not a mean argument about monasteries.

 

[DRJ]

Do you enjoy destroying all the Fun in this game?

I don't give a flip about proving anything to you. I don't have to, nor will I, even attempt to. I bet if you had your way all religions would be ripped out of the game right now.

You're wrong. Once again, you ascribe something to me that you fear yourself. My goal is to simulate the historic effects accurately. So I credit religions for what their effects were and are. And nowadays their effect on science is minimal, regardless if you have 10 monasteries in your hometown or not. If religions, however, make 1 Million Amish people happy, but for the cost of having no electric power, great, include it in civ I say.

So you see, for me civ is about realism and accuracy, that's what makes the gameplay fun for me - and as having 10 monasteries to exploit a whole lot of out of them in postmodern age is no fun for me I argue against it. It's not that I wouldn't like the flavour of founding and hedging a religion in earlier game, don't presume that!

 

[ls612]

You're wrong. Once again, you ascribe something to me that you fear yourself. My goal is to simulate the historic effects accurately. So I credit religions for what their effects were and are. And nowadays their effect on science is minimal, regardless if you have 10 monasteries in your hometown or not. If religions, however, make 1 Million Amish people happy, but for the cost of having no electric power, great, include it in civ I say.

So you see, for me civ is about realism and accuracy, that's what makes the gameplay fun for me - and as having 10 monasteries to exploit a whole lot of out of them in postmodern age is no fun for me I argue against it. It's not that I wouldn't like the flavour of founding and hedging a religion in earlier game, don't presume that!

Stop it, Please. This should not descend into a flame war about religion. This mod is about fun, not about insulting one another.

 

[DRJ]

Stop it, Please. This should not descend into a flame war about religion. This mod is about fun, not about insulting one another.

I agree, but I thought ignoring Joseph would not be in his best interests as it seemed to me that he really wished to get enlightened about my unbreakable love for religion in this game

back to the topic: further above, I posted something about inflation reform: what you think about it - are there other ideas about "progressive assets inflation"?

 

[BlueGenie]

I like it DRJ but am reserving my "vote" in case a different suggestion comes along.

Cheers

 

[AIAndy]

To determine the amount of money that needs to be rebalanced if we remove (or change) inflation, it would be good if several people would post the amount of money that is spent for inflation in their games.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Changing the inflation mechanic will require changing a number of events, wonders and buildings as well.

 

[ls612]

To determine the amount of money that needs to be rebalanced if we remove (or change) inflation, it would be good if several people would post the amount of money that is spent for inflation in their games.

Numbers from before or after my changes today?

 

[DRJ]

To determine the amount of money that needs to be rebalanced if we remove (or change) inflation, it would be good if several people would post the amount of money that is spent for inflation in their games.

Perhaps this is not needed if we started from scratch like I tried to picture out above. The model I described has flexible inflation and doesn't get higher and higher, it adjusts to what comes in as well as what you have (or don't have). Essentially, the more you make the less profitable it gets, in my example an income of 20 and 200 cash lead to 215 after income and account inflation have been extracted. A ten times higher income/account would not get 2150 but 2100 instead. If the income and the account numbers drop it's not anymore a crippling thing but it actually could help to recover faster, as the %surplus iwould be bigger than if you had much money, just some % in my example but over time it would add up and even out a bit.

 

[AIAndy]

Perhaps this is not needed if we started from scratch like I tried to picture out above. The model I described has flexible inflation and doesn't get higher and higher, it adjusts to what comes in as well as what you have (or don't have). Essentially, the more you make the less profitable it gets, in my example an income of 20 and 200 cash lead to 215 after income and account inflation have been extracted. A ten times higher income/account would not get 2150 but 2100 instead. If the income and the account numbers drop it's not anymore a crippling thing but it actually could help to recover faster, as the %surplus iwould be bigger than if you had much money, just some % in my example but over time it would add up and even out a bit.

Starting from scratch still means that we need to know how much money inflation used to take at what game stages.

@ls612: Before is better I assume as for that time there are reports how difficult/easy money was.

 

[ls612]

Starting from scratch still means that we need to know how much money inflation used to take at what game stages.

@ls612: Before is better I assume as for that time there are reports how difficult/easy money was.

I don't think that we want the same amount, at least for Epic. Joseph was right, there was far too much inflation on Epic before, now things are much more reasonable.

 

[JosEPh_II]

In the game I'm continuing from before the Official v22 release, but updated thru SVN, it is 1750 AD. My inflation is over 1000gold/turn. Even with the new value.

I've attached a screenshot of my Financial screen. The 2nd screenie is why I don't build research bldgs Among others besides research) like I used to do. Now I build only 1 or 2 Libraries as in this screenshot. When it actually costs me more than double the stated value in gold for a 1.5 research return. The buildings quickly become unsustainable financially. The River/Harbor chain is an example of another chain that is now only getting minimum usage and Only because I'll need 1 or 2 for later builds.

My Civic costs are almost 800 gold/turn (799) and I actually am still using Banditry which has no upkeep. I'm using 5 low upkeep, and 6 medium. I would like to use 1 high upkeep but I still can't afford it at 111 gold/turn.

In a previous posting I showed my finance screen at 1370AD. At that time my inflation was over 500 gold/turn as was my Civic upkeep. In 400 game years (I didn't count the turns in between these 2 dates) my inflation doubled and my Civic upkeep increased more than 50%.

You will also note that my research % is 35 and back in the 1370AD it was at 20%.

I can play this way for awhile. but it's already starting to become tedious. And I Am an avowed micro manager. The next war will probably seal my fate, but I will most likely have to abandoned what was a Good game again. That too is frustrating.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

In the game I'm continuing from before the Official v22 release, but updated thru SVN, it is 1750 AD. My inflation is over 1000gold/turn. Even with the new value.

I've attached a screenshot of my Financial screen. The 2nd screenie is why I don't build research bldgs Among others besides research) like I used to do. Now I build only 1 or 2 Libraries as in this screenshot. When it actually costs me more than double the stated value in gold for a 1.5 research return. The buildings quickly become unsustainable financially. The River/Harbor chain is an example of another chain that is now only getting minimum usage and Only because I'll need 1 or 2 for later builds.

My Civic costs are almost 800 gold/turn (799) and I actually am still using Banditry which has no upkeep. I'm using 5 low upkeep, and 6 medium. I would like to use 1 high upkeep but I still can't afford it at 111 gold/turn.

In a previous posting I showed my finance screen at 1370AD. At that time my inflation was over 500 gold/turn as was my Civic upkeep. In 400 game years (I didn't count the turns in between these 2 dates) my inflation doubled and my Civic upkeep increased more than 50%.

You will also note that my research % is 35 and back in the 1370AD it was at 20%.

I can play this way for awhile. but it's already starting to become tedious. And I Am an avowed micro manager. The next war will probably seal my fate, but I will most likely have to abandoned what was a Good game again. That too is frustrating.

JosEPh

What iscyourvreason for not building the river authority, or habor lines? They are GIGO buildings for me as I get substantial gold AND research from them in quite large amounts. Do you typically run civics (or some other factor) that neutralizes trade routes?

 

[Epona222]

I haven't fully played the latest release yet, but inflation in previous games has been very low for me. I don't tend to rush buildings or units at all, because if I have at least some +hammers or +%building production or +unit production buildings I have no need to "buy" buildings or units, so my inflation stays negligible.

I haven't got to river authorities yet in my current game (which I just updated today via SVN) but a lot of those buildings have pretty much been free beakers/gold in previous games with little in the way of a negative side, I can't see any reason not to build them.

 

[AIAndy]

In the game I'm continuing from before the Official v22 release, but updated thru SVN, it is 1750 AD. My inflation is over 1000gold/turn. Even with the new value.

I've attached a screenshot of my Financial screen. The 2nd screenie is why I don't build research bldgs Among others besides research) like I used to do. Now I build only 1 or 2 Libraries as in this screenshot. When it actually costs me more than double the stated value in gold for a 1.5 research return. The buildings quickly become unsustainable financially. The River/Harbor chain is an example of another chain that is now only getting minimum usage and Only because I'll need 1 or 2 for later builds.

My Civic costs are almost 800 gold/turn (799) and I actually am still using Banditry which has no upkeep. I'm using 5 low upkeep, and 6 medium. I would like to use 1 high upkeep but I still can't afford it at 111 gold/turn.

In a previous posting I showed my finance screen at 1370AD. At that time my inflation was over 500 gold/turn as was my Civic upkeep. In 400 game years (I didn't count the turns in between these 2 dates) my inflation doubled and my Civic upkeep increased more than 50%.

You will also note that my research % is 35 and back in the 1370AD it was at 20%.

I can play this way for awhile. but it's already starting to become tedious. And I Am an avowed micro manager. The next war will probably seal my fate, but I will most likely have to abandoned what was a Good game again. That too is frustrating.

JosEPh

I think it would be best if you post that savegame as a reference so we can have a look at what should/should not be the case (and especially run it in the debugger to see exactly what it calculates).

From that screens I'd say foreign trade commerce is too high compared to worked plots commerce.
Inflation is excessive and iirc it actually inflates civic and unit costs.

 

[DRJ]

Just thought about something which I think should be recognized:

I always asked me how it could be that the deity/eternity AI can skyrocket so incredibly fast with tech now - in contrast to earlier versions (at least to my feeling) -

in my current game I just saw why: it builds meager, lesser and normal research quite frequently. That means as it has a production bonus on this difficulty and a research bonus as well, building research with already boni-effected hammers creates a super-bonus in the end, which is somehow gamebreaking, imho.

(It explains why in my last deity games Mali, who on GEM have I think 3 gold in their starting region was able to skyrocket so fast: they settled their 2 starting cities around the gold mines and produced a lot of research there most of the time)

What about having AI building research/wealth/espionage at same rate as player, regardless if settler or deity difficulty? Or don't you guys think this should be altered? Or does the AI get no production bonus for research after all and I am just way too bad for this level?

 

[BlueGenie]

The answer to the above question is really simple. Before on higher difficulties the AI got a few techs for free that were out of line with the Research Tree, mainly Fire Building and Stone Tools.
This made the AI look at the technologies with a lot higher research cost and very often start on those before going back and doing the early techs (Druidism getting founded way early is a prime example of this happening). With the Handicap changes the AI now gets techs that are aligned with the tech tree and thus get the techs in a better order, which ultimately is better for growth, research, building, and thus seems to get more benefit than it had before.
On a side not I think that the AI doesn't get more benefit from building wealth/research than their already inherent bonus to hammers as it's a pure conversion and not counted as buildings or units, on which they do get an extra hammer bonus.

As for my reason to post I have deliberated with me, myself, and my alter ego a while and come to the conclusion that we would need a Balancing Thread for every difficulty and game speed as settings vary that much across the line and build/research times vary enough to make different speeds change the difficulty as well. Really it would even require different balancing for map size too as that also changes research speeds as the game reckons that on bigger maps you have more cities and thus higher science output. That might be overdoing it though. *chuckle*
One prime example is money and units. On lower speeds you get the same amount of money per turn but can crank out units a lot faster so your expenses there can increase fast.
Another example is researching and building. On bigger maps and slower speed building times are increased in comparison to research times and thus more cities are able to produce units for wars, or build research/wealth, leading to a completely different scenario than would have been had on a faster speed/smaller map.

Basically I'm stating that everything changes with speed, difficulty, and map size and thus require different balancing threads.
We've had many reports from people on slower speeds and higher difficulties that gold, for instance, is abundant. If this is coupled with a larger map (and more cities) then that would be exponentially more so.
On the other hand others with lower difficulty and faster speeds have said the opposite. Coupled with smaller maps this would be doubly so.

Once my alter ego is finished compiling a list of differences across these three settings I'll post something more about it. Don't hold your breaths though, he's very lazy and might never get around to it.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

What iscyourvreason for not building the river authority, or habor lines? They are GIGO buildings for me as I get substantial gold AND research from them in quite large amounts. Do you typically run civics (or some other factor) that neutralizes trade routes?

Basically to hold Crime done. Otherwise I'd be building them all the time like I did before Crime was introduced. I don't want another game where by 1300AD my Crime level is causing Wild fluctuations in my gold/turn.

Current Civics: Republic, Patrician, Prolet, Guilds, Banditry, Stae Ch., Church, Landfills, Open Borders, Religiuos Trng., Interpreter, Ag Guilds. These add up to 799 Gold per turn and as I posted earlier 1 is No upkeep, 5 are low and 6 are Medium. I would like to use Bureaucracy but it is High Upkeep.

@AIAndy, I'll post the save game this evening.

JosEPh