C2C Balance Thread

[Thunderbrd]

I've been looking for the place to mention this: I still feel that watermills are getting a bum deal. I'd love to see another +2 hammers from them and make them capable of being placed in a forest without destroying the forest! This would make them far more balanced in regards to mines. Lumbermills are also getting shorted by at least a hammer or two I say. I prefer NOT to destroy my forests but currently that means I'm playing rather less than optimally since farms are SOOO much more effective.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's 5021BC and I'm just research Pigments (26th or 27th tech researched so far). It will take me 22 more Techs to reach Tribalism. I should've had tribalism 2000 years ago, around 7000BC and even that is a bit late.

Sedentary Lifestyle is another 10-15 techs past Tribal (maybe more if I want an early religion). Point being at this rate I won't have a 2nd city until ~2000BC way to late. And I won't have a Settler until ~500BC. Of course all the new techs are slowing things down too.

I think the Team needs to consider moving Tribalism up the tech tree. Many of the techs Before Tribal, like Sewing and Carving, even Flint knapping, etc., were techs developed by communities. Tribal is our 1st tech to give a sense of community.

What I tried to point out about Epic before these changes was that Preh, Ancient, Classical and Early Med Eras seemed to be paced fairly well (game years/turn and research rate). It wasn't until late Med and the Ren and Ind. Era that the techs were coming too slow compared to the # of game years/turn

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@JosEPh II: That sounds almost exactly right to my maths. You are about 60% of the way from 12000 BC to 3000 BC turnwise, even though in years you are a good deal closer than that.

 

[JosEPh_II]

4313BC Researching Bone working. 13 more techs till Tribalism. I might get a tribe before 2000BC!

Sidenote: Druidic Traditions only religion founded yet. Was founded at 5480BC by an AI.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

4313BC Researching Bone working. 13 more techs till Tribalism. I might get a tribe before 2000BC!

Sidenote: Druidic Traditions only religion founded yet. Was founded at 5480BC by an AI.

JosEPh

Yeah, I think I see the problem now.

I have allocated 1/12 of the game for the Prehistoric Era in me Gamespeeds. However, with all the new techs being added, this number is antiquated. Probably a better number would be 1/9, but I'll look further into it tomorrow.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Update:Researched Tribalism @ 3084BC. 1st Tribe by 2959BC and 2nd city by 2913BC. It is now 2594BC and just founded 4th city. I have also managed to found Ngaiism and Tengriism. Was surprised by Ngai because I was concentrating on Tribalism. After Tribal I beelined Tengri. Only thing is I have yet to capture a Horse or have a horse resource nearby. ;p

Now that I have several cities we will see how the research picks up momentum.

JosEPh

Edit: Is612, hold off for a day or 2 so I can see how this develops, okay?

 

[zeinul]

spiritual civs so much more powerful then others. on my last game aborigeneese (white color civ) went from mid rank to top rank civ by middle ages. To make it balanced, I think, "no anarchy" trait should be removed from them. +1 happiness per monastery is enough for them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

spiritual civs so much more powerful then others. on my last game aborigeneese (white color civ) went from mid rank to top rank civ by middle ages. To make it balanced, I think, "no anarchy" trait should be removed from them. +1 happiness per monastery is enough for them.

Spiritual do have anarchy it is just shorter than others. Changing them to +1 happy per monastery, which has been tried, puts spiritual back to the worst possible trait. Changing the anarchy length for spiritual may be the way to go especially given all the wonders that shorten anarchy length.

 

[Sgtslick]

I was thinking of changing this myself if it doesn't get changed soon. Spiritual should be like 4 max anarchy or 3. Its totally unfair that non spiritual need to spend 8 turns in anarchy sometimes (snail) and spiritual just need to end the turn.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Why does "everything" have to be the same? Is this what you think "balanced" means?

Why do you want all traits/Civics/Cultures/etc to be the same? Then if they are the same why even have them?

There is nothing fair or unfair about each trait having it's strong point and it's weak point and everything else in between. That's what gives it flavor and uniqueness.

Maybe the real question is: how well are you, the player, dealing with it? And maybe you should be asking yourself the question: is this really a game fault? Or just the why I played this particular game?

As Strategyonly always says: "just sayin'" ( =think about it )

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Why does "everything" have to be the same? Is this what you think "balanced" means?

Why do you want all traits/Civics/Cultures/etc to be the same? Then if they are the same why even have them?

There is nothing fair or unfair about each trait having it's strong point and it's weak point and everything else in between. That's what gives it flavor and uniqueness.

Maybe the real question is: how well are you, the player, dealing with it? And maybe you should be asking yourself the question: is this really a game fault? Or just the why I played this particular game?

As Strategyonly always says: "just sayin'" ( =think about it )

JosEPh

I completely agree with this. The whole point of C2C is to have as many options as the engine will possibly allow. Trying to make everything the same is exactly the opposite of what C2C is about.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Why does "everything" have to be the same? Is this what you think "balanced" means?

Why do you want all traits/Civics/Cultures/etc to be the same? Then if they are the same why even have them?

There is nothing fair or unfair about each trait having it's strong point and it's weak point and everything else in between. That's what gives it flavor and uniqueness.

Maybe the real question is: how well are you, the player, dealing with it? And maybe you should be asking yourself the question: is this really a game fault? Or just the why I played this particular game?

As Strategyonly always says: "just sayin'" ( =think about it )

JosEPh

Which is why I keep meaning to ask why all cultures are becoming the same. Every culture has to have a UU and a Hero. Why? Why not a special building that gives special trade goods instead of the UU or Hero. Currently they are all about the "militaristic" trait why are there none for the other traits?

EG African Culture the Nok famous for two things in archaeology; they skipped the copper and bronze age going straight from stone age to iron age; and they made fantastic terracotta statues. So Culture Nok requires Culture African and Fine Clay. Unique Building Nok Pottery upgrade to potter and requires tech Sculpture provides 2 Nok Sculpture bonuses each. Nok Sculpture +1 happy with Yourba, (+2 if state religion), +1% on bazzar and its upgrades.

 

[Koshling]

Which is why I keep meaning to ask why all cultures are becoming the same. Every culture has to have a UU and a Hero. Why? Why not a special building that gives special trade goods instead of the UU or Hero. Currently they are all about the "militaristic" trait why are there none for the other traits?

EG African Culture the Nok famous for two things in archaeology; they skipped the copper and bronze age going straight from stone age to iron age; and they made fantastic terracotta statues. So Culture Nok requires Culture African and Fine Clay. Unique Building Nok Pottery upgrade to potter and requires tech Sculpture provides 2 Nok Sculpture bonuses each. Nok Sculpture +1 happy with Yourba, (+2 if state religion), +1% on bazzar and its upgrades.

No reason per se. However, because the heroes are SO powerful it would actually be pretty hard to balance them against other things (apples vs oranges problems). Of course, it may simply be that culture-enablement is the wrong mechanic for heroes.

 

[ls612]

Which is why I keep meaning to ask why all cultures are becoming the same. Every culture has to have a UU and a Hero. Why? Why not a special building that gives special trade goods instead of the UU or Hero. Currently they are all about the "militaristic" trait why are there for the other traits?

EG African Culture the Nok famous for two things in archaeology; they skipped the copper and bronze age going straight from stone age to iron age; and they made fantastic terracotta statues. So Culture Nok requires Culture African and Fine Clay. Unique Building Nok Pottery upgrade to potter and requires tech Sculpture provides 2 Nok Sculpture bonuses each. Nok Sculpture +1 happy with Yourba, (+2 if state religion), +1% on bazzar and its upgrades.

I think I asked Hydro about Culture Buildings a while ago, and he said something to the effect of that he wanted the Culture Units to be finished first.

That said, I would really like to see Culture buildings to replace UBs in C2C, but that would be a lot of work for Hydro, especially considering that Multiple Maps are right around the corner.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think I asked Hydro about Culture Buildings a while ago, and he said something to the effect of that he wanted the Culture Units to be finished first.

That said, I would really like to see Culture buildings to replace UBs in C2C, but that would be a lot of work for Hydro, especially considering that Multiple Maps are right around the corner.

But then they would just all be the same again.

 

[ls612]

But then they would just all be the same again.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'same'. Do you mean that some cultures should have units, some buildings, and others Heroes/promotions/other wierd stuff?

Also, speaking of uniqueness, it would be nice to see Civilization Powers, abilities that you can only activate once in a long while that are linked to what civ (not culture) you choose. That would really help make things different.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'same'. Do you mean that some cultures should have units, some buildings, and others Heroes/promotions/other wierd stuff?

Exactly. As I said currently all the cultures are militaristic ones where are the cultures for the other traits?

 

[Sgtslick]

Why does "everything" have to be the same? Is this what you think "balanced" means?
Why do you want all traits/Civics/Cultures/etc to be the same? Then if they are the same why even have them?
There is nothing fair or unfair about each trait having it's strong point and it's weak point and everything else in between. That's what gives it flavor and uniqueness.
Maybe the real question is: how well are you, the player, dealing with it? And maybe you should be asking yourself the question: is this really a game fault? Or just the why I played this particular game?
As Strategyonly always says: "just sayin'" ( =think about it )
JosEPh

Balance does not mean being similar in how they feel or play its about them being similar in strength. When did I even say that I want traits/Civics/Cultures to be the same?? Stop putting words in my mouth and speak for youself - coz i never said that.

"There is nothing fair or unfair about each trait having it's strong point and it's weak point and everything else in between" You are overlooking the fundamental reason why spiritual is overpowered. Its because its strong point is way better than any other trait's strong point. Really noob thing to say particularly when talking about balance.

 

[BlueGenie]

Well, ehm, I don't think Spiritual Trait is overpowered (and I play on Eternity). In fact I avoid it because I think it's not good enough.
This isn't due to what it does but due to how I play. It's seldom I get Anarchy at all as I plan ahead, getting to a few techs I want Civics from, then use GP's to enter Golden Ages and do my Civic switchings then. Even plan ahead to what nearby Civics I want and during my GA's streamline my research to get to those before the GA ends.
So, in my opinion, being able to do that basically takes the main reason to have Spiritual Trait away and thus makes it, well, not powerful at least.

Cheers

 

[Sgtslick]

What about the AI? Do they do this?