C2C Balance Thread

[wolfensoul9]

Normal is fine for a game like Vanilla Civ where there was only around 100 techs where as now we have like 100 tech in each era. Not to mention so many more buildings, resources, units and civics. Even if techs were limited to 1 per turn it would still be too slow for normal speed.

Slowing down the speed and increasing the number of turns allows the player to play the game more like a vanilla civ normal would play. However this means the games are much longer too.

In short you just cannot balance it on normal anymore since there is so much more to fit into the game. Things obsolete too fast and you do not have enough time to build anything.

Think of it like slicing a carrot. Normal speed would be say cutting it into 4 equal size pieces. Each piece works well to play on at that speed for Vanilla Civ. As we add more stuff its like adding more slices of carrot. There is still the same amount of carrot but they are now thinly sliced. Each slice too too thin to enjoy like the large pieces were before. Thus to get our new slices to be that size you need an even larger carrot to slice up so their slices are the same size as the 4 original pieces. Thus the larger carrot is like the slower game speed. You can still enjoy the same size bites but there is that much more carrot too.

I hope that answers your question.

Thank you, yes it does.

And yet, Joseph plays on Normal.

Maybe because he is old, he needs his carrots thinly sliced? Haha, ah, I kid the black sheep of the C2C community. If he likes his games short, then so be it.

 

[ls612]

This is a fault frm using the slower gamespeeds. On Epic a Golden age last 14 turns. On Normal they last 8. If Eternity lasts "several hundred" then Eternity needs "fixed".

JosEPh

Well, a Golden Age on Normal speed lasts 8 turns and Normal has 1000 or so turns total. that means that one GA is 0.8 % of the game. Eternity has 14000 turns and has GAs of 125 turns, meaning that a golden age on Eternity is 0.9% of the game. So it's not as far off as you think.

 

[wolfensoul9]

It's 125 now? I thought it was like 64 back in v23. Or am I just remembering incorrectly?Either way, as long as everything's proportional, then I'm fine.

I have to ask, though, why did you feel the need to shorten the various speeds? Like hydromancerx says, this mod is only really balance-able for longer speeds, and yet you decided to lower the turn count for all except eternity?

It just seems like you guys work so hard on balancing the speeds, and then take two steps back in changing the turn count, and have to do it all over again. Was there really anything to be gained from that latest round of turn changing?

Forgive me for my naïveté, but how hard could simply deciding the length of the games be? Can't you just make normal be 2000, epic, 4000, marathon, 6000, etc?

It just seems to me like the turn count should be the absolute most fundamental part, and when you keep shifting that, it just negates whatever work was put in. Can't we just find the speeds, and stick with them?

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's 125 now? I thought it was like 64 back in v23. Or am I just remembering incorrectly?Either way, as long as everything's proportional, then I'm fine.

I have to ask, though, why did you feel the need to shorten the various speeds? Like hydromancerx says, this mod is only really balance-able for longer speeds, and yet you decided to lower the turn count for all except eternity?

It just seems like you guys work so hard on balancing the speeds, and then take two steps back in changing the turn count, and have to do it all over again. Was there really anything to be gained from that latest round of turn changing?

Forgive me for my naïveté, but how hard could simply deciding the length of the games be? Can't you just make normal be 2000, epic, 4000, marathon, 6000, etc?

It just seems to me like the turn count should be the absolute most fundamental part, and when you keep shifting that, it just negates whatever work was put in. Can't we just find the speeds, and stick with them?

Work on Game Speeds is some of the toughest available. You can't really just say it should be 'this' long. What you have to first say is, it needs to be 'this' long in 'this' era, for each and every era, and then go through the process and try to get it to work just as smoothly at growth or shrinking factors on the different game speeds and hopefully you've targeted real world advancement key points to coincide somewhat with the average player's game while giving every era a nicely balanced reach that generally takes the length of average research rates to cross, all while keeping nice mathematical symmetries so that you don't have one era changing all its turns on say, April of the 3rd, 27th, etc years of the era... It's actually terribly complex. It's so complex its hard to explain how complex it is.

 

[ls612]

Work on Game Speeds is some of the toughest available. You can't really just say it should be 'this' long. What you have to first say is, it needs to be 'this' long in 'this' era, for each and every era, and then go through the process and try to get it to work just as smoothly at growth or shrinking factors on the different game speeds and hopefully you've targeted real world advancement key points to coincide somewhat with the average player's game while giving every era a nicely balanced reach that generally takes the length of average research rates to cross, all while keeping nice mathematical symmetries so that you don't have one era changing all its turns on say, April of the 3rd, 27th, etc years of the era... It's actually terribly complex. It's so complex its hard to explain how complex it is.

It doesn't help that something is screwed up in the dates code in the DLL that AIAndy wrote in march, that is throwing things off a bit according of my and Praetyre's analysis. But yes, it is hard, and I'm trying my best here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thank you, yes it does.

And yet, Joseph plays on Normal.

Maybe because he is old, he needs his carrots thinly sliced? Haha, ah, I kid the black sheep of the C2C community. If he likes his games short, then so be it.

The Mod plays and flows better imho on the more "normal" speeds. Normal at 1000 turns is almost twice as long as Vanilla BtS (600), Epic in V BtS is 900 and in C2C it was 3400 before the recent reductions, think about that.

The extremely slow (longer games) speeds also make the balance between gold/production/science and culture that much harder to fine tune. I've played the slower speeds a few times for comparision and it's Way easy to accumulate Gold for instance on the long er speed than the shorter. And this is also obvious for the other aspects too.

I totally disagree with Hydro's assessment of what speed is best for the Mod. IF Hydro would post results from the more "normal" speeds and make adjustments from them too and not just from Snail and slower I would be more inclined to agree with what he posts in this regards.

Hydro wrote:In short you just cannot balance it on normal anymore since there is so much more to fit into the game. Things obsolete too fast and you do not have enough time to build anything.

This is just Not true. Especially considering the reference point was the gamespeeds Prior to ls612's recent adjustments. It's just like playing 1 Map type all the time. You've only balanced for that limited specific set of parameters of that map or that gamespeed and Not for the overall mod. So basically you've made a scenario try to fit for the whole Mod. It will give you generalities only.

wolfensoul wrote:What?! Aw, please don't take out the stacking golden ages.

I don't think that is what is being discussed here, just the length for A golden age. But in the same regard don't come in here and complain it's unbalanced when you do such a thing and That is exactly what you did.

Once you get a huge several hundred turn long golden age during the late classical (not so hard to do on eternity), your civ starts getting exponentially better with all the religious buildings you found. Just build em all up for one, switch to a different religion, with almost no penalties for doing so, and build all the ones for the that one. Rinse, repeat, and reap, reap, reap.

Frankly, it's a bit overpowered. I think the religious wonders should definitely lose their effects if their associated religion is not your current state one. Frankly, I was stunned when I realized this wasn't the case. Perhaps remove the science bonus for all non-state religion monastaries?

Something needs to be nerfed.

We know players stack golden ages, DH in particular Loves to do it. And we've never said that because DH does it that golden ages being stacked should be removed. Never. So stop jumping to conclusions and stop saying something is unbalanced when you use something like that. You're usong an end of scale aberation to try and set the median? C'mon Man!

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Stacking of golden ages is normal Civ IV and is good. I don't stack golden ages as much as I used to because we got rid of the golden age from Heroes building achievements. Having heroes start golden ages made it almost impossible not to stack golden ages.

I think the religious wonders should definitely lose their effects if their associated religion is not your current state one. Frankly, I was stunned when I realized this wasn't the case. Perhaps remove the science bonus for all non-state religion monastaries?

Can't be done with the current XML. Dand I am getting fed up with saying this every two months or so)

Besides just because a monastery is not of your state religion does not mean science is being done there.

I am working on a mod to flatten the science from monasteries. It means that they will always provide a boost since they wont go obsolete but their peak science output will be in the Middle Ages and Renaissance eras.

 

[wolfensoul9]

I don't think that is what is being discussed here, just the length for A golden age. But in the same regard don't come in here and complain it's unbalanced when you do such a thing and That is exactly what you did.

We know players stack golden ages, DH in particular Loves to do it. And we've never said that because DH does it that golden ages being stacked should be removed. Never. So stop jumping to conclusions and stop saying something is unbalanced when you use something like that. You're usong an end of scale aberation to try and set the median? C'mon Man!

JosEPh

Huh? Joseph, I was not complaining about the golden ages being stackable as unbalanced... and I never said anything about the reason they should be unstackable is because DH does it. I really am trying to understand this part of the post, but am failing miserably.

And the reason the stacking ever came up was because when SO said he wanted the length of the golden ages shortened so much, I responded not to remove the ability to stack them because, with shorter golden ages, it is of course very much harder to get a very long (stacked) one going, ergo, making them shorter is effectively removing that capability, or at least making it much much harder.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I totally disagree with Hydro's assessment of what speed is best for the Mod. IF Hydro would post results from the more "normal" speeds and make adjustments from them too and not just from Snail and slower I would be more inclined to agree with what he posts in this regards.

This is just Not true. Especially considering the reference point was the gamespeeds Prior to ls612's recent adjustments. It's just like playing 1 Map type all the time. You've only balanced for that limited specific set of parameters of that map or that gamespeed and Not for the overall mod. So basically you've made a scenario try to fit for the whole Mod. It will give you generalities only.

All the time we get complaints that people cannot build this building or that building because there was not enough turns to build them. When was the last time you built say a Termite Mound before it went obsolete?

 

[wolfensoul9]

All the time we get complaints that people cannot build this building or that building because there was not enough turns to build them. When was the last time you built say a Termite Mound before it went obsolete?

You know, I'm half tempted to play a few games on normal speed, just to see if it's really as different as he says. I suppose it would be good to have another opinion actually backed through experience, rather than principle.

 

[JosEPh_II]

All the time we get complaints that people cannot build this building or that building because there was not enough turns to build them. When was the last time you built say a Termite Mound before it went obsolete?

@Hydro,

All the time in every game in every early city even on Normal.

If this makes you upset sorry, but are you really that out of touch with the faster game speeds and build times/processes? When was the last time you even started a game on Epic much less Normal?

Suggestion/Challenge: Try a Large C2C Shuffle map with 7AI on Normal game speed, No REV, No City Limits, and just on Noble level. Heck, just go thru the Preh Era into the Ancient Era. It might help your Perspective.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

@Hydro,

All the time in every game in every early city even on Normal.

If this makes you upset sorry, but are you really that out of touch with the faster game speeds and build times/processes? When was the last time you even started a game on Epic much less Normal?

Suggestion/Challenge: Try a Large C2C Shuffle map with 7AI on Normal game speed, No REV, No City Limits, and just on Noble level. Heck, just go thru the Preh Era into the Ancient Era. It might help your Perspective.

JosEPh

WOW are you kidding me on Normal, you'd breeze by the techs like nothing, am i correct?? Infact i am thinking of getting RID of Quick and Blitz, i see NO need for them in C2C.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can't be done with the current XML. (and I am getting fed up with saying this every two months or so)

Alright... tis on my priority list then.

Infact i am thinking of getting RID of Quick and Blitz, i see NO need for them in C2C.

Useful for gametesting only really.

Normal gamespeed is possible to play so long as you utilize your build queues and select your techs far down the road on the tree. I'm not sure its been made to mathematically match the other speeds in its ratios though. Nevertheless, I wonder, how do you fight a war when your troops are outdated by the time they get to your opponent's cities?

 

[wolfensoul9]

@Hydro,

All the time in every game in every early city even on Normal.

If this makes you upset sorry, but are you really that out of touch with the faster game speeds and build times/processes? When was the last time you even started a game on Epic much less Normal?

Suggestion/Challenge: Try a Large C2C Shuffle map with 7AI on Normal game speed, No REV, No City Limits, and just on Noble level. Heck, just go thru the Preh Era into the Ancient Era. It might help your Perspective.

JosEPh

Well, I don't know what Hydro's gonna do, but if it helps at all, I'll go and do this right now.

Shouldn't take longer than a couple hours, ha..

 

[JosEPh_II]

Alright... tis on my priority list then.

Useful for gametesting only really.

Normal gamespeed is possible to play so long as you utilize your build queues and select your techs far down the road on the tree. I'm not sure its been made to mathematically match the other speeds in its ratios though. Nevertheless, I wonder, how do you fight a war when your troops are outdated by the time they get to your opponent's cities?

Another erroneous assumption here too I'm afraid. ls612 has addressed this area too.

Thru the Preh Era if you get into a War it's because you play a crowded map. Plain and simple on that one. And you'll have the same units as your opponents.

Once you hit Ancient Era at Sed Life, by then you should have 3-5 cities, and Your Mil units are not that much different than what you had in Preh. It's when you get Archers and Axe in Ancient that the units make the 1st major step up from Preh.

The Ancient Era Steps up at Iron working which then has you knocking at Classical's door. So you have whole eras to use the "sets" of units.

The obvious wild cards in this are the "mounted" units you acquire from resources. But even an Elephant rider or Horseman is good for 2 whole Eras.

As for Eras after Medieval you use the units available just like vanilla BtS would.

Somebody has been blowing too much smoke up the Mod Teams skirts about not being able to use units/bldgs/techs etc on Normal and Epic. And until you, the Team, starts doing some serious playtime on these levels you're running on misconceptions.

Why do you think I stuck with these speeds? Because none of you were using them. They were and have been neglected on your parts (Team wise).

WOW are you kidding me on Normal, you'd breeze by the techs like nothing, am i correct??

No more so than using multiple golden ages. Tech research on Normal runs in the ranges of 1 - 6 turns at 100% Research in Preh Era. And really, who can Not run Preh Era research at 100%? And how many cities are you going to have on Eternity in the Preh Era anyway? 3-6 maybe? More only If you have made the Map Crowded, or used Barb World and captured every Barb city around you to increase your beaker count.

@SO,
I doubt if anyone would complain if you eliminated Blitz and Quick. But Normal and Epic is a whole 'nother story.

Until the recent shortening of turns per game speed by ls612 Normal was over 2000 turns and Epic was over 3400. Do the comparison to vanilla Normal and Epic. Normal was 3X longer in this mod as Normal in Vanilla BtS and Epic was almost 6X longer. You're not That crowded in content in this Mod to Not be able to use these 2 speeds, and use them effectively and most of all have Fun with them.

Game Speed Options, use them or lose them I guess is the new motto around here now?

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro,

All the time in every game in every early city even on Normal.

If this makes you upset sorry, but are you really that out of touch with the faster game speeds and build times/processes? When was the last time you even started a game on Epic much less Normal?

Suggestion/Challenge: Try a Large C2C Shuffle map with 7AI on Normal game speed, No REV, No City Limits, and just on Noble level. Heck, just go thru the Preh Era into the Ancient Era. It might help your Perspective.

JosEPh

Alright I think I will. I will get back to ya when I have to let you know what I think of it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Hydro,

As for the termite mound I get to use it for ~ 10-20 turns on normal as I don't go for Cooking until I have the Stone Tool line (at least thru spiked club) and Hunter/trapping techs done 1st.

Actually obsoleting Termite mounds at Cooking is really too early anyway, if you think about it.

Same as Amphibian Myth obsoleting at Poison, that's a real strange one to me also.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Same as Amphibian Myth obsoleting at Poison, that's a real strange one to me also.

I went through and changed most of the Myths obsolete techs. This one was a suggestion which does seem a bit early to me also but I was not sure. I was going to make the subdued poisonous animals be able to build the "Poisoner's Hut" but didn't. Or at last reduce the cost due to Myth and building (snake charmer and pit).

Do you have a better place for it (Amphibian Myth) to go obsolete?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@JosEPh_II

Any other setting I should have? I am setting up a new game right now. Any specific civ you would like me to play as?

EDIT: Since no answer I will just set it on random civ and put the other settings I normally do that you have not stated that should be different.

 

[ls612]

WOW are you kidding me on Normal, you'd breeze by the techs like nothing, am i correct?? Infact i am thinking of getting RID of Quick and Blitz, i see NO need for them in C2C.

Sort of. I have balanced it so that it should be OK for playing, but it is darn fast. As for getting rid of Quick and Blitz, that's a good idea, I'll do that soon.