C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Hydromancerx]

+50% Production of Walls, High Walls, Castle, Riding School, Palace Garden, Palace Walls, Servant Quarters, Throne Room, Ball Room, Palace, Spanish Citadel, Moat, Arrow Slits, Siege Towers, Keep, Heavy Gates, Dungeon, Royal Monument

But Royal Monument can only be made under Monarchy. Having it produce 50% faster is redundant since that would be the only time you could make it.

 

[EldrinFal]

But Royal Monument can only be made under Monarchy. Having it produce 50% faster is redundant since that would be the only time you could make it.

Yeah, I was going back and forth on it. In the end I thought it likely that the Monument was "priced" relative to other buildings of the genre, and not already with a reduced price. I figured the Monarch would desire the Monument and likely put extra resources in it, so it seemed to make sense to have the +50%.

It's also added incentive to build it amongst the wide variety of other choices of buildings available.

It's not major sticking point though. If there is a general consensus against that, it's easily enough removed.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well if its just to see it on the Civic stats list, its already on there as an enabled building.

If you want it cheaper you are better off just directly reducing the price.

 

[little_cyclone]

... some emphasis on warlike behavior, but less warlike than Despotism....

Perhaps also give new troops 1 or 2 XP, or increase the chances for a Great General?

To be honest, I don't like the +25% Production for Knight, Mailed Knight, Camel Knight, Crusader, Noble, Lord. 1) Can you even build Crusaders, I thought those only spawned randomly if you built King Richards Crusade? 2) There are times when I try to emulate certain governments and attempt to play a particular civic all the way through the game, lately its been Monarchy. I don't like giving a bonus to specific units (unless those units are specific to just that civic) as it gives the impression that civic is only useful during that time. Maybe it could be changed to a +25% Production for all mounted units? That would make the bonus a little more long ranging & might encourage people to use it more then just the early/mid medieval era.. The bonus for Nobles & Lords makes perfect sense tho. I use them as often as I can spare production, the Dedication promotion is a nice early Blitz promotion

 

[EldrinFal]

Perhaps also give new troops 1 or 2 XP, or increase the chances for a Great General?

To be honest, I don't like the +25% Production for Knight, Mailed Knight, Camel Knight, Crusader, Noble, Lord. 1) Can you even build Crusaders, I thought those only spawned randomly if you built King Richards Crusade? 2) There are times when I try to emulate certain governments and attempt to play a particular civic all the way through the game, lately its been Monarchy. I don't like giving a bonus to specific units (unless those units are specific to just that civic) as it gives the impression that civic is only useful during that time. Maybe it could be changed to a +25% Production for all mounted units? That would make the bonus a little more long ranging & might encourage people to use it more then just the early/mid medieval era.. The bonus for Nobles & Lords makes perfect sense tho. I use them as often as I can spare production, the Dedication promotion is a nice early Blitz promotion

I thought about the XP and General one but decided that Monarchy alone wouldn't guarantee better trained troops. There may be some aspects of Feudalism that might go along with Monarchy that could grant that though.

Also have to consider it's weight compared to it's surrounding Gov't Civics. I was thinking I may have added TOO MUCH to Monarchy. I wanted it to be a bit better than Despotism, but not overly so to the point it would be better 99% of the time.

It is true that those time specific units will become obsolete. Unfortunately there isn't a system built in to grant Free Promotions for units made during a Civic, nor give a bonus to a specific class of units, such as Mounted. I would have to list every one out, and that would also mean they are all listed in the Civic. It gets messy with even just the Building list.

But that is something to consider. I DID have Riding School included, so it would fall in line with that. Hmmm...

 

[Koshling]

I thought about the XP and General one but decided that Monarchy alone wouldn't guarantee better trained troops. There may be some aspects of Feudalism that might go along with Monarchy that could grant that though.

Also have to consider it's weight compared to it's surrounding Gov't Civics. I was thinking I may have added TOO MUCH to Monarchy. I wanted it to be a bit better than Despotism, but not overly so to the point it would be better 99% of the time.

It is true that those time specific units will become obsolete. Unfortunately there isn't a system built in to grant Free Promotions for units made during a Civic, nor give a bonus to a specific class of units, such as Mounted. I would have to list every one out, and that would also mean they are all listed in the Civic. It gets messy with even just the Building list.

But that is something to consider. I DID have Riding School included, so it would fall in line with that. Hmmm...

Monarchy will always get used over despotism much of time due to the city limit increase

 

[EldrinFal]

Monarchy will always get used over despotism much of time due to the city limit increase

That's true. Those will always be big weights in favor of the later Gov'ts. But Despotism offers a better ratio of happiness from troop presence, so that should help offset some of the anger.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Monarchy will always get used over despotism much of time due to the city limit increase

Only if they Are On.

If they are not (No city limits) , then Despot can be used for late game too (as was it's original intentions from RoM and AND days). You all are making the early Gov't Civics useless for ppl that may want to use them later in the game.

Quite frankly with the Food and Gold changes already put in for V18 City Limits are Redundant and are no longer needed. As they were Always an Artificial barrier, and they Do Not Enhance game play.

Monarchy now has too much "stuff". You're making it a Super Gov't Civic that the AI will not move off of once they get it.

Even my version was a bit strong too.

JosEPh

 

[EldrinFal]

Only if they Are On.

If they are not (No city limits) , then Despot can be used for late game too (as was it's original intentions from RoM and AND days). You all are making the early Gov't Civics useless for ppl that may want to use them later in the game.

Quite frankly with the Food and Gold changes already put in for V18 City Limits are Redundant and are no longer needed. As they were Always an Artificial barrier, and they Do Not Enhance game play.

Monarchy now has too much "stuff". You're making it a Super Gov't Civic that the AI will not move off of once they get it.

Even my version was a bit strong too.

JosEPh

I'm beginning to think that the AI targets one yield -- when it evaluates what Civics it wants, and then chooses the Civics that provide the most of that yield. I never see the AI change just 1 Civic anymore. When they change, they shift to 2, 3, or more Civics all at once. IF that IS the case, then they would change off Monarchy to another Civic if that other Civic provided a better yield of whatever it is he thinks he needs.

I think Pacifism was a special case because it was the ONLY one among the Military Civics to provide something other than Military or GG production.

But I'll look at Monarchy again and see if I can trim the fat a bit.

 

[Koshling]

I'm beginning to think that the AI targets one yield -- when it evaluates what Civics it wants, and then chooses the Civics that provide the most of that yield. I never see the AI change just 1 Civic anymore. When they change, they shift to 2, 3, or more Civics all at once. IF that IS the case, then they would change off Monarchy to another Civic if that other Civic provided a better yield of whatever it is he thinks he needs.

I think Pacifism was a special case because it was the ONLY one among the Military Civics to provide something other than Military or GG production.

But I'll look at Monarchy again and see if I can trim the fat a bit.

The multiple change is a deliberate result of my recent tweaks. The AI now holds off civic switches if somewhere close in the research tree is something that will cause it to want to switch again (well, it weighs the benefits anyway), with the result that it tends to hold off on marginal changes but then make them at the same time as more important switches, and thus you see several civics change at once. Of course while its in a golden age (or if it has no anarchy trait) it doesn't delay like this, but that's more the exception case.

 

[EldrinFal]

The multiple change is a deliberate result of my recent tweaks. The AI now holds off civic switches if somewhere close in the research tree is something that will cause it to want to switch again (well, it weighs the benefits anyway), with the result that it tends to hold off on marginal changes but then make them at the same time as more important switches, and thus you see several civics change at once. Of course while its in a golden age (or if it has no anarchy trait) it doesn't delay like this, but that's more the exception case.

I'll have to keep an eye on it more. Even with that configuration, the AI should still occasionally change only 1 civic here and there.

As the AI guru, does that AI evaluate according to a specific need? "I need so I'll pick civics that give me as much as I can get." Or does it just pick what it considers the best among the category? "Monarchy is better than Despotism, so I'll change to Monarchy." Or is it much more complex and I'm just tooting my own horn at this point?

 

[Koshling]

I'll have to keep an eye on it more. Even with that configuration, the AI should still occasionally change only 1 civic here and there.

As the AI guru, does that AI evaluate according to a specific need? "I need so I'll pick civics that give me as much as I can get." Or does it just pick what it considers the best among the category? "Monarchy is better than Despotism, so I'll change to Monarchy." Or is it much more complex and I'm just tooting my own horn at this point?

It does occassionalle still make single changes, but they are much rarer.

It's more complex. It weighs different factors according to its current needs, which will vary depending on things like city count, how hard it is finding it to stay happy, and so on. What it does NOT do (and this is really a weakness of the entire AI, not specific to civics) is plan in any way. Everything is pretty much an independent point decision (right down to how individual units move with a very few exceptions). As such it doesn't do things like select civics based on some extrapolation of what it expects to happen/do in the near future. In principal that's a definate area for improvement (but not trivial)

 

[EldrinFal]

It does occassionalle still make single changes, but they are much rarer.

It's more complex. It weighs different factors according to its current needs, which will vary depending on things like city count, how hard it is finding it to stay happy, and so on. What it does NOT do (and this is really a weakness of the entire AI, not specific to civics) is plan in any way. Everything is pretty much an independent point decision (right down to how individual units move with a very few exceptions). As such it doesn't do things like select civics based on some extrapolation of what it expects to happen/do in the near future. In principal that's a definate area for improvement (but not trivial)

I see. Well then I guess from the Civics standpoint, we can just try to make them as useful as possible, but I think even JosEPH will have to accept that there may be some Civics the AI sticks with for a long time, and that doesn't always mean adjustment is necessary-- though sometimes it IS warranted

So Koshling, when are you going to make the AI start to analyze Player and AI decisions and learn how to improve itself against us?

"Would you like to play a game of chess?"

 

[Koshling]

I see. Well then I guess from the Civics standpoint, we can just try to make them as useful as possible, but I think even JosEPH will have to accept that there may be some Civics the AI sticks with for a long time, and that doesn't always mean adjustment is necessary-- though sometimes it IS warranted

So Koshling, when are you going to make the AI start to analyze Player and AI decisions and learn how to improve itself against us?

"Would you like to play a game of chess?"

Ha! There is plenty of WAY lower hanging fruit first!

To promote AI variance I **do** plan to increase trait importance in civics (from almost nothing currently) in V19.

If the chess question was serious, and you have access to an iPad or iPhone, sure [though I'm a better Go player than I am a chess player really]

 

[EldrinFal]

Ha! There is plenty of WAY lower hanging fruit first!

To promote AI variance I **do** plan to increase trait importance in civics (from almost nothing currently) in V19.

If the chess question was serious, and you have access to an iPad or iPhone, sure [though I'm a better Go player than I am a chess player really]

Traits definitely need work, I think. Not just in relation to Civics.

I actually like Go better than Chess, though I don't claim to be "good" at either. I don't have any tablets yet unfortunately. But maybe Christmas time

 

[Koshling]

@DH - could you possibly have a quick look at the Python behind the civic advisor - if you hover over or select Despotism the description overflows the box. The box for that civic option needs increasing slightly in size - I assume they are already dynamically sized since the different categories all vary, but I'm not sure how to achieve this...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH - could you possibly have a quick look at the Python behind the civic advisor - if you hover over or select Despotism the description overflows the box. The box for that civic option needs increasing slightly in size - I assume they are already dynamically sized since the different categories all vary, but I'm not sure how to achieve this...

Unfortunately neither do I, and when StrategyOnly asked the question on the main forum there was no reply.

I will have a look but don't promise anything quick.

Edit: The main problem is that I have seen and built, in C++, a much better way of doing the display to match the contents. What I probably should do is pre-pass over all the civics getting the max number of lines for both the number of civics and the total civic description. :sigh: What I will try and do for this release is just increase the space on that civc.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Looking at it there appear to be at last four problems

1. text is going over the right of the box
2. text is going over the bottom of the box
3. second row of quick buttons is going outside the box causing a scroll bar on the right
4. information in the main panel is going over the scroll bar at the top.

There is code in place for both of these. the first is not being done everywhere and the second is because the bit to figure out the size of the box is not using the same code as the bit that puts the text in the box.

Problems identified - now to see if I can solve it.

Edit: fixed 2 and 3

1. is caused by the dll code not returning the correctly wrapped lines. Python code is

				szHelpText = CyGameTextMgr().parseCivicInfo(iCivic, False, True, True)
				HelpList = szHelpText.splitlines()
				lines += len(HelpList)

 

[EldrinFal]

Is there any (relatively easy) way to get those building lists to be grouped together? So instead of a separate +1 or +1 for each and every one of them, they can be +1 for Barracks, Garrison, Military Academy, etc etc.

Seems that might save some space.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Is there any (relatively easy) way to get those building lists to be grouped together? So instead of a separate +1 or +1 for each and every one of them, they can be +1 for Barracks, Garrison, Military Academy, etc etc.

Seems that might save some space.

All that is done in the dll not the Python. The screen gets handed the formatted text for what the effects are. The strategy text on the other hand is formatted by the Python.