C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[ls612]

I think that with the new civics that the gold situation is a bit ridiculous. My current game, in the early Medieval era, had +200 or so per turn before the new civics were added, but now I am at -350 , with a treasury of 10000 or so, on Epic. I've tried many possible combinations, and none of them help, so either there is something screwed up with the modifier recalculations (Koshling mentioned something about maintenence being not recalculated properly), or the Civics need rebalancing, and I lean toward the latter as the most likely option.

 

[strategyonly]

I think that with the new civics that the gold situation is a bit ridiculous. My current game, in the early Medieval era, had +200 or so per turn before the new civics were added, but now I am at -350 , with a treasury of 10000 or so, on Epic. I've tried many possible combinations, and none of them help, so either there is something screwed up with the modifier recalculations (Koshling mentioned something about maintenance being not recalculated properly), or the Civics need rebalancing, and I lean toward the latter as the most likely option.

Thats because you have to pay closer attention to NOW what civics you really need, per what you want to play. You cant go down in civics category, if it does make sense to now, and alot of these new civics are for wartime, and not peace time. that matters also.

 

[JosEPh_II]

SO,
The Civic Cost/upkeep is much higher too now. Can't go any lower than the 1st one can you?

And almost ever Civic now has an additional maint cost tacked on too. Even Charity has a -2% Gold now for cryin' out loud!

Couple this with the increased Inflation and City Maint costs (and Yes they are Higher no matter Who says they are not) you can't even run at 0% research and Not lose 100 gold/turn. But then when the game says you're losing 200 gold a turn at 20% research you Will Sometimes (caps for emphasis) see your Treasury balance actually increase in varying amounts. And then next turn suffer the -200 gold reduction. It's just all over the place on the main screen display and something is Broken, Badly.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

SO,
The Civic Cost/upkeep is much higher too now. Can't go any lower than the 1st one can you?

And almost ever Civic now has an additional maint cost tacked on too. Even Charity has a -2% Gold now for cryin' out loud!

Couple this with the increased Inflation and City Maint costs (and Yes they are Higher no matter Who says they are not) you can't even run at 0% research and Not lose 100 gold/turn. But then when the game says you're losing 200 gold a turn at 20% research you Will Sometimes (caps for emphasis) see your Treasury balance actually increase in varying amounts. And then next turn suffer the -200 gold reduction. It's just all over the place on the main screen display and something is Broken, Badly.

JosEPh

That and the help text is displaying incorrectly for Civic and building upkeep, so people aren't getting an accurate number for their upkeep costs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have my biggest cities on Wealth and 1 turn I get 40 gold from a pop 25 Capital city. The next turn I might get 90 Gold. And I attribute this wild swing to the City screen AI. As it's worse than ever about switching citizen on worked tiles to different tiles or adding as a Specialist. And Also it constantly changes the Specialist designation even after you go in and reset them to what you Need or Want. There has to be a way to turn this AI Off! It'd driving me Nuts cause it's spastic, every turn and even more so every time you place a new build item. Please someone make an AI Lock Button for the City screen AI Please! :beg:

And if you say turn it off I do! But it turns itself back on all the time! If there is anyway to do this please tell me how. I'm constantly turning it off only to have it come back On the very next turn and even sometimes If I change my build items while in the city screen. Surely Others have noticed this wild and erratic behavior too?

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

SO,
The Civic Cost/upkeep is much higher too now. Can't go any lower than the 1st one can you?

And almost ever Civic now has an additional maint cost tacked on too. Even Charity has a -2% Gold now for cryin' out loud!

Couple this with the increased Inflation and City Maint costs (and Yes they are Higher no matter Who says they are not) you can't even run at 0% research and Not lose 100 gold/turn. But then when the game says you're losing 200 gold a turn at 20% research you Will Sometimes (caps for emphasis) see your Treasury balance actually increase in varying amounts. And then next turn suffer the -200 gold reduction. It's just all over the place on the main screen display and something is Broken, Badly.

JosEPh

I have my biggest cities on Wealth and 1 turn I get 40 gold from a pop 25 Capital city. The next turn I might get 90 Gold. And I attribute this wild swing to the City screen AI. As it's worse than ever about switching citizen on worked tiles to different tiles or adding as a Specialist. And Also it constantly changes the Specialist designation even after you go in and reset them to what you Need or Want. There has to be a way to turn this AI Off! It'd driving me Nuts cause it's spastic ever turn and even more so every time you place a new build item. Please someone make an AI Lock Button for the City screen AI Please! :beg:

JosEPh

Now see, that is what happened to me with the OTHER civics that were inplace. But with these new ones, its quite the opposite "for me." I have a + in the middle of the Medieval Era for the FIRST time Plus i am FINALLY capturing city upon city with visual effect like the old civics had?? "Again just the opposite."

I wonder, are you'll building every building you can get your hands on, by any chance, or not building and just making war? Or making war and building at the same time??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am also in late medieval and starting to get very large gold abundance.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I just finished a minor war with a Barb on the next island. It's the only war I've had. I conquered 2 of it's 4 cities after it had attacked and razed my 2nd outpost city on it's Island. 200 game years later I have just started to meet my Regular AI neighbors. No one has caravels yet cause we're still in the Classical Era.

I actually thought this game would crash out and I'd start losing units and bldgs by running out of gold. I still have a 2800 in gold in the treasury even with a -400 gold/turn at a research setting of 25%. So I keep playing.

@SO and DH, Did you both start New games for the New Civics? Or like me continue with a game already in progress?

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

I just finished a minor war with a Barb on the next island. It's the only war I've had. I conquered 2 of it's 4 cities after it had attacked and razed my 2nd outpost city on it's Island. 200 game years later I have just started to meet my Regular AI neighbors. No one has caravels yet cause we're still in the Classical Era.

I actually thought this game would crash out and I'd start losing units and bldgs by running out of gold. I still have a 2800 in gold in the treasury even with a -400 gold/turn at a research setting of 25%. So I keep playing.

@SO and DH, Did you both start New games for the New Civics? Or like me continue with a game already in progress?

JosEPh

My game was in-progress, but you didnt answer my questions earlier?

 

[Randomness]

My game, in the early classical, is still fine after the civic changes. Gold dropped for me and the AI, but not by much. I've had to lower my science from 100% to 95% and the AIs seem to be handling it just as well. I really don't understand how there can be such a consistant differenece in gold amounts for different people.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Now see, that is what happened to me with the OTHER civics that were inplace. But with these new ones, its quite the opposite "for me." I have a + in the middle of the Medieval Era for the FIRST time Plus i am FINALLY capturing city upon city with visual effect like the old civics had?? "Again just the opposite."

I wonder,1 are you'll building every building you can get your hands on, by any chance, 2.or not building and just making war? 3. Or making war and building at the same time??

1. Almost, if there is a big -gold attached No, for ex the City hall line, almost untouched.
2. Answered that one. Building and only 1 war with a Barb that had 4 cities on an adjacent island. It's over.
3. If fighting the barb counts then yes. If you mean against a regular AI then No.

Did I miss anything?

My game, in the early classical, is still fine after the civic changes. Gold dropped for me and the AI, but not by much. I've had to lower my science from 100% to 95% and the AIs seem to be handling it just as well. I really don't understand how there can be such a consistent difference in gold amounts for different people.

I think 1 very important point being overlooked is how much AI contact does your game have. Why? Trade revenue. I just met my 1st AI neighbors just 200 game years ago. Before that I had No AI contact. So all my trade is intra Empire.

Second is the constantly changing city AI that on every turn on every build is changing which city tiles get worked and what Specialist get used. I turn it off it comes right back on. So I can not get a set of tiles or Specialists to stay set.

Savegame of current turn attached. Updated to SVN build 3436. Started on SVN build 3333.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

1. Almost, if there is a big -gold attached No, for ex the City hall line, almost untouched.
2. Answered that one. Building and only 1 war with a Barb that had 4 cities on an adjacent island. It's over.
3. If fighting the barb counts then yes. If you mean against a regular AI then No.

Did I miss anything?

JosEPh

OK from the sound of what your writing you play on alot of islands?? I wonder if that makes alot of difference, i bet it does??

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes see edit in previous post.

JosEPh

 

[Cyrusfan]

My game, in the early classical, is still fine after the civic changes. Gold dropped for me and the AI, but not by much. I've had to lower my science from 100% to 95% and the AIs seem to be handling it just as well. I really don't understand how there can be such a consistant differenece in gold amounts for different people.

JosEPh_II is covering some of this. I suspect that playing on pangaea maps skewed my experiences towards more gold (contact with everyone by the time Rangers are available. lots of land tiles for farms which seem to me to be superior to water tiles). I also wonder how the use of slavery is affecting folks-sure they've been getting huge production in the cities slaves are relocated to, but if you're razing everything in sight, you're not capturing pop 20 cities that can build up to speed in no time, you're settling lots of new cities that have to work from scratch.

On that note, I'll be starting a new game (assuming DH's latest fix works for me) with razing on (to get a feel for his new slave mechanics) and I was wondering about razing-does the pop-up give you any warning of wonders/holy cities? It's been ages and several mods ago since I left it on (out of fear of early barbarians) and I don't think it used to.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

JosEPh_II is covering some of this. I suspect that playing on pangaea maps skewed my experiences towards more gold (contact with everyone by the time Rangers are available. lots of land tiles for farms which seem to me to be superior to water tiles). I also wonder how the use of slavery is affecting folks-sure they've been getting huge production in the cities slaves are relocated to, but if you're razing everything in sight, you're not capturing pop 20 cities that can build up to speed in no time, you're settling lots of new cities that have to work from scratch.

On that note, I'll be starting a new game (assuming DH's latest fix works for me) with razing on (to get a feel for his new slave mechanics) and I was wondering about razing-does the pop-up give you any warning of wonders/holy cities? It's been ages and several mods ago since I left it on (out of fear of early barbarians) and I don't think it used to.

The slave mechanic is not in yet. RL and those python problems have delayed it. I doubt I will get it in for the v26 freeze

To answer Joseph, I was playing a new game, but in that game I did have contact with almost all the nations by classic era even though we are spread out over 5 continents. Each pair of continents has a small island, in one case a volcano, linking them. So I had lots of foreign trade routes.

 

[strategyonly]

To answer Joseph, I was playing a new game, but in that game I did have contact with almost all the nations by classic era even though we are spread out over 5 continents. Each pair of continents has a small island, in one case a volcano, linking them. So I had lots of foreign trade routes.

Same with mine, lots of trading available, so that seems to be a determining factor then.

 

[Questdog]

Second is the constantly changing city AI that on every turn on every build is changing which city tiles get worked and what Specialist get used. I turn it off it comes right back on. So I can not get a set of tiles or Specialists to stay set.
JosEPh

I used to have this problem (AI not staying turned off) and figured out the cause was double clicking on my flag to open the city screen. The first click would open the city screen and the second click would turn on the city AI.

Since then, I have been careful to single click and have had no problems of the AI magically turning itself on.

I HAVE noticed, when using the AI to work tiles, that it will rearrange the workers periodically, even though the focus and build have not changed, nor has the population grown. It would seem to me that there should only be one best arrangement of tile workers per focus and the AI should stick to it.

P.S. I am not talking of rearrangement of workers to equivalent tiles, but to completely different tiles. Besides, it never seems to have a problem being consistent about which tiles to work when all the tiles are the same.....

 

[JosEPh_II]

I double click on the cities main tile to open the city screen. But have you noticed that as soon as you place a build in the que and leave the city screen that the city tiles being worked changes. It's in constant flux.

It would seem to me that there should only be one best arrangement of tile workers per focus and the AI should stick to it.

That's why I'm asking for a "Lock" button. I almost "never use" the City AI. I like to place my citizens on the city tiles "I" want worked. But since the city AI has been added to, the shifting is now more pronounced than ever before. Even in Vanilla BtS the City AI would occasionally shift worked tiles on me. And I know many players depend on the Automation of the City AI. I don't. I want "my" control to be inviolate. If I turn Off the AI I want it to Stay Off till I have a need for it. I suppose I should be addressing Koshling on this issue too.

And I never have cities that have all worked tiles "worked/developed" with the same improvement (ie all tiles farms or cottages). Not like the AI now that builds Cottages almost exclusively, especially the Barb AI.

I think I need to start a thread on Diplomacy too. As I certainly do Not like it's current state. The AI wants the Farm and the House when it comes to trades. We went from easy trades (which made ppl gripe) to ridiculously difficult to get trades. Couldn't there have been a compromise?

JosEPh

 

[Mouthwash]

I've always wondered; why does "anarchy" have to be the most primitive and harmful civic? There are a lot of examples throughout history where societies successfully functioned without an imposed state or government: [http://mises.org/daily/6145/Anarchy-in-the-Aachen]

 

[Koshling]

That's why I'm asking for a "Lock" button. I almost "never use" the City AI. I like to place my citizens on the city tiles "I" want worked. But since the city AI has been added to, the shifting is now more pronounced than ever before. Even in Vanilla BtS the City AI would occasionally shift worked tiles on me. And I know many players depend on the Automation of the City AI. I don't. I want "my" control to be inviolate. If I turn Off the AI I want it to Stay Off till I have a need for it. I suppose I should be addressing Koshling on this issue too.

See my previous response to this (on the previous page), where I asked if a simple proposal would suffice (at least for now) since it's relatively easy to do [no responses recieved]...