C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The original document is Afforess' Rewritten Civ4 Civics.

Hydro and I were discussing it recently on the slaves thread. Starting about here. It opens a single reply but clicking on the thread link in the upper right corner will take you to the discussion.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I also brought up it in this very topic back on page 30 before positing in DH's topic.

I think having Slavery under a new Labor civic is the best choice. That way we do not need to liiit the civci to slavery based civics but can have different kinds of labor civcs too. The exact stats of them can be anything from Afforess plan to our own custom stats. I am not to picky on what we decide on as long as its balanced.

I did not like DH's idea of "Us and Them" and "Not Me (citizen)" civics. Which is why I think cvics like Slave Labor, Organized Labor and Post-Labor make more sense. Plus the names sound better.

Plus Afforess did have some pretty cool ideas. I am glad he kept them up online all this time for us still to use. Thus even if he is done modding his ideas still help us.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

How does this sound guys? I'm going to move BOTH the Slavery AND Post-Scarcity civics into Labor.

Labor Civic:
-Individualism: Available from start, +5% commerce, -5% hammers, 15% longer to grow.
-Community Labor: Available from Cooperation, +10% hammers, workers created 25% faster, -5% commerce
-Slavery: Available with Slavery, +15% hammers, +5% commerce, allows Slave Specialist, +1 and , +25% longer to grow, -10% and , +1 on ALL improvements.
-Skilled Labor: Available with Currency, +1% and +1% on many different buildings, such as Sculptors Workshop(This way, your economy grows with proper infrastructure, +5% , +25% maintenance on Corporations, +10% longer to grow,
-Serfdom:Available with Feudalism, +1 on farms, +1 , +10% with Castle, -5% science
-Sweatshop Labor: Available with Industrialism, +15% , +5 , (special building provides another +15% , but +3 : yuck: ) +10% , +20% to grow
-Socialist Labor: Available with Labor Union, +3 , +1 , +15% , -10% , Citizen Specialist +1 , -5%
-Assembly Line: Available with Assembly Line, +25% with Factory, +10% with factory, + 2 , -1 on select buildings
-Robotic Labor: Available with Robotics, +35% with factory, +10% , +4 , -1 and on many more buildings.
-Post Scarcity: Stay as is

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

1. Hmm Individualism sound good for the starter civ.

2. I think Slavery should be called "Slave Labor" not to confuse it with Slavery tech.

3. Same for Serfdom being "Serf Labor".

4. Hmm what is Skilled Labor representing?

5. Sweatshop Labor hmm. What happend to Centralized Labor, Organized Labor and Private Labor?

6. Socialist Labor, hmm.

7. Assembly Line, I think you are getting to specific.

8. Robotic Labor, this seems a bit like Post-Labor and maybe too specific.

9. What would the upkeep of all these be?

If combined I wonder ...

Labor Civic (Listed in tech order)
- Individualism (NONE)
- Community Labor (Cooperation)
- Slave Labor (Slavery)
- Caste Labor (Caste System)
- Skilled Labor (Currency)
- Serf Labor (Vassalage)
- Private Labor (Economics)
- Organized Labor (Economics)
- Mechanized Labor (Assembly Line)
- Centralized Labor (Marxism)
- Sweatshop Labor (Industrialism)
- Socialized Labor (Labor Union)
- Robotic Labor (Robotics)
- Post-Labor (Androids)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Get rid of Slavery/Slave Labor as a civic completely. Instead have Slaves available at Slavery and have +/- on the various civics foe each slave you have.

OK what does this civic represent? I think it needs some statement on that before I can agree with either of you.

In the start there was no concept of work it was just what you did for you and the tribe to live. It was definitely not Individual that is what we are heading towards today in many countries. I would call it Tribe Labor.

At Corporation I see people who are good at something doing that more in exchange (not formal barter yet) for others doing what they are good at, eg medicine woman. I would call it "Specialisation Labor".

At Currency I would call it "Professional Labor".

Serf Labor was ended in England mostly due to the plague and the longbow. (generalisation I know) Then came a period where people worked the land for themselves rather than in vassalage. Then came the "enclosures" which kicked people off the land to fend for themselves or mostly die. Luckily for many the industrial revolution came along and you got the idea of workers or people working for pay.

-Sweatshop Labor: Available with Industrialism, +15% , +5 , (special building provides another +15% , but +3 : yuck: ) +10% , +20% to grow
-Socialist Labor: Available with Labor Union, +3 , +1 , +15% , -10% , Citizen Specialist +1 , -5%
-Assembly Line: Available with Assembly Line, +25% with Factory, +10% with factory, + 2 , -1 on select buildings
-Robotic Labor: Available with Robotics, +35% with factory, +10% , +4 , -1 and on many more buildings.
-Post Scarcity: Stay as is

- Private Labor (Economics)
- Organized Labor (Economics)
- Mechanized Labor (Assembly Line)
- Centralized Labor (Marxism)
- Sweatshop Labor (Industrialism)
- Socialized Labor (Labor Union)
- Robotic Labor (Robotics)
- Post-Labor (Androids)

I am OK with the ideas of Organised, Centralised and Scocialised Labour.

Sweatshop is just another form of Slavery and should be represented in the work outcome of slaves.

Robotic Labor I am OK with but only if it means Robots replace slaves as well.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

How about just call the first type of labor, "Unorganized Labor"? So like ...

- Unorganized Labor (NONE)
- Community Labor (Cooperation)
- Tribal Labor (Tribalism)

So here is a revised list ...

Labor Civic (Listed in tech order)
- Unorganized Labor (NONE)
- Community Labor (Cooperation)
- Tribal Labor (Tribalism)
- Slave Labor (Slavery)
- Caste Labor (Caste System)
- Professional Labor (Currency)
- Serf Labor (Vassalage)
- Private Labor (Economics)
- Organized Labor (Economics)
- Specialization Labor (Corporation)
- Mechanized Labor (Assembly Line)
- Centralized Labor (Marxism)
- Socialized Labor (Labor Union)
- Post-Labor (Androids)

Since Sweatshop is just a modern form of slave labor its not needed. Likewise Robotic Labor can be either covered through Slave Labor (Robot Slaves), Mechanized Labor (Robotic Tools) or Post-Labor (Android Workers).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No does not work for me at all.

 

[Hydromancerx]

No does not work for me at all.

Ok what would you have? I tried to follow your comments. Such as adding Tribe Labor and Specialization Labor and renaming Professional Labor.

Note I don't want the default to be Tribal Labor before Tribalism is invented. Which is why I made "Unorganized Labor" instead of "Survivalism" or "Individualism".

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Note I don't want the default to be Tribal Labor before Tribalism is invented. Which is why I made "Unorganized Labor" instead of "Survivalism" or "Individualism".

Yes, agreed. And yes, I won't put in Assembly Line Labor. Mechanization Labor is on the same line as Assembly Line labor, so I'm not in favor of this one. However, I'm not seeing a big difference between Professional Labor, Private Labor, Organized Labor, and Specialization Labor. And if we are going to put in Caste Labor, I would like it if we had the tag that restricts it unless a certain civic is selected. So, Caste Labor would require Caste System.

Get rid of Slavery/Slave Labor as a civic completely. Instead have Slaves available at Slavery and have +/- on the various civics foe each slave you have.

OK what does this civic represent? I think it needs some statement on that before I can agree with either of you.

I don't want to get rid of Slavery, it's had a very profound effect on history. It represents where one person owns another, and they can work them as hard as they like, for they are only property.

At Corporation I see people who are good at something doing that more in exchange

Corporation or Cooperation? And this will be represented by Community Labor, where they assign jobs based on persons skill. Example: The man who can run 3 miles will be assigned the role of the hunter.

 

[Acularius]

Labor Civic (Listed in tech order)
- Communalism *Given some sort of bonus when the tech Cooperation is achieved and Tribalism is achieved)
- Slave Labor (Slavery)
- Caste Labor (Caste System)
- Professional Labor (Currency)
- Serf Labor (Vassalage)
- Private Labor (Economics)
- Organized Labor (Economics)
- Specialization Labor (Corporation)
- Mechanized Labor (Assembly Line)
- Centralized Labor (Marxism)
- Socialized Labor (Labor Union)
- Post-Labor (Androids)

Generally, just merge the first couple of civics into communalism, since that's generally how it would be done. Give bonuses, or special buildings that are unlocked at the techs of Cooperation and Tribalism. (Kind of similar to the Stone Tool Workshop in concept)
Eventually this civic should be obsoleted as the population grows beyond what is feasible for communalism to work, and by then, the next level of civics or the beginning of specialization in communities that usually occur when the population achieve the 'Sedentary Lifestyle' and 'Agriculture' tech when the populations grow and CAN specialize.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I don't want to get rid of Slavery, it's had a very profound effect on history. It represents where one person owns another, and they can work them as hard as they like, for they are only property.

OK but it does not belong in this list because you can still have slaves under all the other civics. That is all I am saying.

 

[ls612]

Just my 2cp, I like Afforess' Labor civics in concept, but some of them will need balance adjustments for C2C. However, his would be my first choice for a new Labor civic category.

 

[strategyonly]

OK but it does not belong in this list because you can still have slaves under all the other civics. That is all I am saying.

I see what DH is saying and he is correct, BUT thats again where game-play and real-life intercede. Actually BOTH points are really good pts. Since "we" are NOT going to put this in the next release why dont we put it out to the people and let them decide, i am good with or without it being a Civic. . . As DH says it is a very relevant part of even today's society.

 

[Hydromancerx]

- Communalism *Given some sort of bonus when the tech Cooperation is achieved and Tribalism is achieved)

Communalism is already an Economic civic.

 

[Kreatur]

the militia units where given free under the charity civic if you build a farm at the medival era. but why is this feature apply to the charity tech ? i think it is a remnant of a time where there wasnt any military civic. the feature would better fit with the consripton ore vasalage military civic. sorry for my bad english

 

[strategyonly]

the militia units where given free under the charity civic if you build a farm at the medival era. but why is this feature apply to the charity tech ? i think it is a remnant of a time where there wasnt any military civic. the feature would better fit with the consripton ore vasalage military civic. sorry for my bad english

Actually it was Serfdom, but since we got rid of that Civic, i figured, you are getting the Militia only because of the # of workers percentage wise, and they are given free, so a Charity would be the next best thing, they are only there (supposedly) to Protect the workers.

 

[Kreatur]

but then there should be a notation in the charity civic that this feature exist.

 

[strategyonly]

Yeah there probably should be, but what i intended in the first place when i put them into the game, was to have something, just POP-OUT at you and you go WOW, now that was nice, didnt expect that!

But i was just considering it to be an Easter Egg, or what ever its called. . . .

 

[Kreatur]

nice idea, but the problem is that in medival times you have a lot of better healt care civics to choose from. so its unlikely that someone will find them

 

[strategyonly]

nice idea, but the problem is that in medival times you have a lot of better healt care civics to choose from. so its unlikely that someone will find them

Hence the factor Plus it is in the main forum in one of the first ten posts someplace with a screenie!!