C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[EldrinFal]

Speaking of civics, is there any way you could convince the AI to stop switching and reswitching them the first chance they get? Most of the civs in my game spend the majority of their time in unproductive and destabilizing anarchy simply flopping back and forth between despotism and monarchy.

Koshling did some work on that in the SVN. If you're using latest SVN and it's still happening, it might be useful to him to provide some additional details.

 

[Koshling]

Speaking of civics, is there any way you could convince the AI to stop switching and reswitching them the first chance they get? Most of the civs in my game spend the majority of their time in unproductive and destabilizing anarchy simply flopping back and forth between despotism and monarchy.

Is that still happening in the latest svn for you? I thought I had that fixed.

 

[steampunk1880]

Sorry, I haven't got around to figuring out how to set up the SVN. If you think you've already fixed it, please disregard me and my version seventeen dot oh

 

[EldrinFal]

Sorry, I haven't got around to figuring out how to set up the SVN. If you think you've already fixed it, please disregard me and my version seventeen dot oh

Well if someone poses a question I can answer, I don't like to leave them hanging. Even if it's been addressed and mentioned in another thread.

 

[Koshling]

Sorry, I haven't got around to figuring out how to set up the SVN. If you think you've already fixed it, please disregard me and my version seventeen dot oh

Phew . Pleas let me know whether it seems significantly better for you once v18 is released - I'd appreciate the feedback at that point.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It certainly is for early warmongers. But the question is whether it is used by them.
What do you think about my idea? Do you think there should be more advantages for DC?

Oh for sure! It's a weak Civic to begin with. Reduce or remove some of it's negatives so AI and Player both see it as a viable alternative to Prophets.

@Steampunk,
Are you playing with REV ON? And/Or City Limits ON? Revolutions can cause the AI to switch between those 2 Civics as can City Limits. Think about it.

JosEPh

 

[steampunk1880]

@ Joeseph: Sure, Revolutions is on. Is that always going to be a problem with that mod? I thought a simple solution would be to tell the AI to wait 100 turns minimum after switching civics before doing it again.

 

[climat]

It may be a matter of play style since DC is for warmongers and comes early.
Its civic buildings are not bad.
Divine Monument (comes with Ceremonial Burial, which is unnecessary requirement because DC comes with Mysticism which requires CB) : +1 experience for new mounted and melee units.
Shrine : same as Prophet. provides more gold with resources.
Sacrificial Altar : +1 ,+1, -50% whipping anger duration.
Tlalo's Altar (Wonder) : Free Sacrificial Altar in every cities. +2, +2

I think that it will be enough if disadvantages are removed and Upkeep is lowered to Medium.
One problem is that whipping is certainly not useful.

BTW, I can't find the tag doing "lower military support cost" part.

 

[EldrinFal]

It may be a matter of play style since DC is for warmongers and comes early.
Its civic buildings are not bad.
Divine Monument (comes with Ceremonial Burial, which is unnecessary requirement because DC comes with Mysticism which requires CB) : +1 experience for new mounted and melee units.
Shrine : same as Prophet. provides more gold with resources.
Sacrificial Altar : +1 ,+1, -50% whipping anger duration.
Tlalo's Altar (Wonder) : Free Sacrificial Altar in every cities. +2, +2

I think that it will be enough if disadvantages are removed and Upkeep is lowered to Medium.
One problem is that whipping is certainly not useful.

BTW, I can't find the tag doing "lower military support cost" part.

This is the one you want Climat:

<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>20</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>


@AIAndy or @Koshling

<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>3</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>

Can you take a look at this tag and see if it's working properly. Even when I set it more than 1, the amount in the Civilopedia says +1 Support Cost per Military Unit. Thanks.

 

[climat]

That of DC is set as 0, and other values of tags about military also are 0.
I have no idea where "lower support cost" comes from.

 

[EldrinFal]

That of DC is set as 0, and other values of tags about military also are 0.
I have no idea where "lower support cost" comes from.

It comes from that tag I just quoted above. The one I listed gives a certain number of free military units depending on your population. My interpretation is that it is a percentage of your total population = free units. The Modiki on it isn't 100% clear. But I DO know that "Lower Support Cost" shows up when I have a value set there.

There is another tag that sets a number of BASE free military units. It's usually the tag just above this one.

When you see "+1 Support per Military Unit" that is actually a different tag-- the one I mentioned above to Koshling and AIAndy which is either broken, or I am interpreting its function very wrong.

 

[climat]

Now I understand it. <iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits> is set as 6.
Why does pedia show "interpreted" version of information..

So..

Divine Cult (Medium Upkeep)

Unlimited Priests (How about 1 free priest in capital instead? It can't be done with current tags, though.)
can build 6 more units without support cost
-25% WW
+50% in capital (This may have to be lowered. or increase in capital can be considered also.)
+1 with State Religion.
+1 with Palace, Forbidden Palace, Sacrificial Altar, Pyramids, Taj Mahal, Mausoleum of Maussollos, and Goat Farm (I don't get it..).
+2 with Monument, Pyramid of the Magician (Naghualism wonder)
enables Divine Monument, Shrine, Sacrificial Altar, Tlalo's Altar.

 

[JosEPh_II]

and Goat Farm (I don't get it..).

Seemed to be the animal of choice for sacrifices? Although many other animals were used in sacrificial offerings. Guess you had to be there or something like that....

JosEPh

 

[climat]

Ah, animal sacrifice. I think at least sheep farm should give happiness then.

 

[little_cyclone]

Ah, animal sacrifice. I think at least sheep farm should give happiness then.

...... let the redneck jokes commence...

 

[Praetyre]

Culture (New Zealand)
Requires: Native Culture (Oceanian), Culture (Maori), Culture (English), Prime Timber, Shore

50% faster construction of Sky Tower, Weta Workshop
Enables recruitment of Anzac Trooper
+10 Sheep for every 1 population
+5 , +3 with Sheep

 

[Hydromancerx]

Culture (New Zealand)
Requires: Native Culture (Oceanian), Culture (Maori), Culture (English), Prime Timber, Shore

50% faster construction of Sky Tower, Weta Workshop
Enables recruitment of Anzac Trooper
+10 Sheep for every 1 population
+5 , +3 with Sheep

Wrong topic. Also Sky Tower, Weta Workshop? Um we don't have any of those wonders. I would also just have ...

Requires: Native Culture (Oceanian), Culture (English), Sheep, Coast

Since Maori already requires prime timber.

 

[Praetyre]

It was a joke in response to a joke (a metajoke? a subjoke?) that little_cyclone made predicting jokes (Jokeception?) against rednecks as sheep shaggers, which is also a stereotype applied very, very frequently to New Zealanders, Scotsmen (of which I unfortunately happen to fall into both categories by citizenship and by birth) and to a lesser extent the Welsh. I don't think New Zealand warrants it's own culture (come to think of it, the national unit should be the All Black judging by how much attention they get next to everything else in the known universe here), and the Prime Timber was a reference to the Maori culture's requirements, since they live on the exact same turf (just google "Waitangi Tribunal", "Foreshore and Seabed" or "Orewa Speech" to see how that turns out).

 

[EldrinFal]

How about removing all disadvantages of DC and lowering its upkeep to Medium? Is it too extreme? Not that useful, but not that bad civic.
But I assume people will still use Prophet although disadvantages are removed..

@Climat - Please list out specifically how you think Divine Cult should look. Most Civics should have some kind of disadvantage other than just Upkeep, so we should come up with something balanced and fair.

DC and Intolerant are 2 Civics I have not tried to adjust yet.

But if you look at the Civ4CivicsInfo file I posted I Have changed Slavery.

JosEPh

@JosEPH - It would be helpful to me if you listed at least the specific changes you want to see in Slavery or even better the whole Civic as it should look. Use the List feature when posting to put them in nice bullet points. I think others would like to see your ideas without having to load up the XML and reading it that way.

I'll also add that in the long run, Slavery will probably NOT be an Economy Civic. IMHO it doesn't belong there. But for now, let's adjust it to address immediate needs.

 

[EldrinFal]

With Despotism reworked (and pushed to SVN), I'm taking a look at its neighbor Monarchy. I still consider Monarchy an overall BETTER government, but at the same time Despotism should have its advantages.

My feeling is that Monarchy is a bit more centralized with some emphasis on warlike behavior, but less warlike than Despotism. Monarchs have various means to legitimize their rulership versus merely power/tyranny, and relies on troops slightly less to reduce citizen anger. I also continued the trend of Monarchy favoring certain buildings, especially their own place of residence. They also favor appointed and ritualized knights and lords.

Here is what I pose as the new Monarchy. As always, please comment

Monarchy

• Upkeep High (no change)
• +5% in Capital
• Remove: +1 from Walls, High Walls, Castle
• Remove: +1 Support Cost for Military
• +10% in Capital
• +5% in Capital
• +1 per Military Unit in City
• +3 in Capital
• Remove: No in Capital
• +30% Maintenance from Distance to Capital (up from 15%)
• +15% Maintenance from Number of Cities
• +30% Maintenance from Overseas Cities (up from 15%)
• Free Military Units = 20% of Population
• +10% Military Unit Production
• +25% Production for Knight, Mailed Knight, Camel Knight, Crusader, Noble, Lord
• Remove: +50% Production for Archer, Longbowman
• Remove: +50% Production for Espionage Units
• Unlimited Nobles (no change)
• +50% Production of Walls, High Walls, Castle, Riding School, Palace Garden, Palace Walls, Servant Quarters, Throne Room, Ball Room, Palace, Spanish Citadel, Moat, Arrow Slits, Siege Towers, Keep, Heavy Gates, Dungeon, Royal Monument
• Fixed Borders (no change)