C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Shogu]

I think there is to much gap in growth between tribalism +50% more food needed and caste system with no penalty.

 

[EldrinFal]

Should the Eduction, Garbage, Immigration and Language civics be added to the core? They have been around awhile now. And it would be easier to keep track of them if they were all in one file.

What do you guys think?

I think Education, Garbage, and Immigration are all appropriate in Civics. I've mentioned before I don't care for the Language one because it is a pure linear progression and one I feel represents technological improvements and not Civic choices. There is never a reason NOT to choose the best one when you have it.

In any case, if you still want it in there Hydro for whatever you planned to use it for, I won't remove it. Eventually I will need to add the Flavor properties to those.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think Education, Garbage, and Immigration are all appropriate in Civics. I've mentioned before I don't care for the Language one because it is a pure linear progression and one I feel represents technological improvements and not Civic choices. There is never a reason NOT to choose the best one when you have it.

In any case, if you still want it in there Hydro for whatever you planned to use it for, I won't remove it. Eventually I will need to add the Flavor properties to those.

There is also Agriculture too. But I assume you deem that appropriate as well.

Note sure how else to implement language though. IF you have other ideas on how it should work let me know. Its the only method I could figure out which allows for other civs to have +/- relations to you based on your communication level. The science bonus stuff could be taken out, but then the civs would not do very much or be very appealing.

 

[BlueGenie]

Immigration should perhaps do something more than what it currently does. I always feel Open Borders is by far the best one of those due to +2 trade routes, +25% trade route yield, and -15% food needed for growth.

Skilled Workers I feel needs more bonuses. +10% science and hammers doesn't even start to make up for -1 Trade Routes, and then there's still the High Upkeep to consider. Having +Happy and +Health would fit too, and higher science output, like 20%, together with a +10% Gold and we might be talking.

Closed borders and Secure Borders should have some (huge) bonus against Espionage conducted in your cities while Open Borders maybe has a negative value there. Closed to Immigrants doesn't really mean no Foreign trade Routes either. That's an humongous loss if adopting Closed Borders and I feel the +2 Trade Routes and -15 to grow from Open vs. no extra Trade Routes and +20% to grow from Closed is compliment enough. Don't need to remove all Foreign TR too.

Cheers

 

[EldrinFal]

Immigration should perhaps do something more than what it currently does. I always feel Open Borders is by far the best one of those due to +2 trade routes, +25% trade route yield, and -15% food needed for growth.

Skilled Workers I feel needs more bonuses. +10% science and hammers doesn't even start to make up for -1 Trade Routes, and then there's still the High Upkeep to consider. Having +Happy and +Health would fit too, and higher science output, like 20%, together with a +10% Gold and we might be talking.

Closed borders and Secure Borders should have some (huge) bonus against Espionage conducted in your cities while Open Borders maybe has a negative value there. Closed to Immigrants doesn't really mean no Foreign trade Routes either. That's an humongous loss if adopting Closed Borders and I feel the +2 Trade Routes and -15 to grow from Open vs. no extra Trade Routes and +20% to grow from Closed is compliment enough. Don't need to remove all Foreign TR too.

Cheers

A lot of the categories need balancing and tweaks. And I agree that Open Borders is a bit weighted compared to the others right now. I will refer to your suggestions when I look at the values.

I actually just pushed the rest of the Government changes the other day, including Flavor properties for them, so I think they are a bit more balanced now, and have stronger pros and cons. The Flavors should make the AI be a bit more varied in what they choose.

There is also Agriculture too. But I assume you deem that appropriate as well.

Note sure how else to implement language though. IF you have other ideas on how it should work let me know. Its the only method I could figure out which allows for other civs to have +/- relations to you based on your communication level. The science bonus stuff could be taken out, but then the civs would not do very much or be very appealing.

I do think Agri belongs in there, but it will likely require a few tweaks. Generally speaking, I think Civics should have some sense of getting "better" with later techs, but there should usually be more than 1 that is relevant at any given time, other than the very early game and in some cases the very LATE game.

I understand your point about the language barrier improving relations and agree with it in principle. But you might be able to accomplish the same thing by say, granting an extra bonus to a building, or a new building/national wonder, or even an auto-triggered event that gives the relationship bonus. Or perhaps "Establishing an Embassy" already represents some of that and/or the effects can be enhanced?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@EldrinFal

That's one of the reasons I wanted to add them to the core so they could be balanced and tweaked more readily with the other civics.

I understand your point about the language barrier improving relations and agree with it in principle. But you might be able to accomplish the same thing by say, granting an extra bonus to a building, or a new building/national wonder, or even an auto-triggered event that gives the relationship bonus. Or perhaps "Establishing an Embassy" already represents some of that and/or the effects can be enhanced?

Well in another mod they made like tons of different languages and those that spoke the same language had better relations. While this makes sense I think its overdoing it a bit of what the different civics I had do.

I also do not think "Establishing an Embassy" is doing exactly what the language civic is doing. However auto-events may be the way to go. But that's its way beyond my capability and probably low on the priority list of those on the team who can do it. So for now I think the civic is at least a good place holder until we can do it better.

 

[BlueGenie]

"Language" could be named "Foreign Relations" instead then perhaps as that would be more in line with what it does? Though then it becomes more like Immigration I suppose...

What it could do, apart from better relations, is grant ability to establish embassy at some point and furthermore increase Foreign Trade Route Yields by some percentages instead of bonus to Science and Culture, or a little of both.

For instance:
Native Language: Establish Embassy and Open Borders possible. Small bonus to Trade Routes. No change in relations against other nations.
Trade Language: Free Trade Agreements possible. Small Bonus to Trade Routes. Tiny increase in relations with other nations.
Interpreters: Vassalage possible (with the right techs). Medium Bonus to Trade Routes and Small additional bonus to Foreign trade Routes. Medium increase in relations with other nations.
Language Education: Large bonus to Trade Routes and additionally Medium bonus to Foreign Trade Routes. Larger increase in relations.
Universal translator. Large bonus to Trade Routes and Foreign Trade Routes. Biggest Relation increase.

Not sure why the additional Culture from language unless it's from being able to save plays, music, dances, poems, books, a.s.o. for posterity. If that's the case then either certain buildings could get a bonus in culture (library, university, a.s.o.) depending on what language civic one has.

Just my pennies worth.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

Can Parliament be looked at? It's a very weak Civic with a High cost. It gives nothing that justifies it's cost.

In fact I'm really wondering why it's even a Civic choice as Senate is already in there.

What is the reason for having Senate and Parliament?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Can Parliament be looked at? It's a very weak Civic with a High cost. It gives nothing that justifies it's cost.

In fact I'm really wondering why it's even a Civic choice as Senate is already in there.

What is the reason for having Senate and Parliament?

JosEPh

Parliament does give you another "Forbidden Palace" type build, reducing the overall maintenance cost in your nation.

 

[EldrinFal]

@EldrinFal

That's one of the reasons I wanted to add them to the core so they could be balanced and tweaked more readily with the other civics.

Sounds good. Let's get them in there then.

Well in another mod they made like tons of different languages and those that spoke the same language had better relations. While this makes sense I think its overdoing it a bit of what the different civics I had do.

Interesting. And I agree with you. Especially with the large number of cultures we have.

I also do not think "Establishing an Embassy" is doing exactly what the language civic is doing. However auto-events may be the way to go. But that's its way beyond my capability and probably low on the priority list of those on the team who can do it. So for now I think the civic is at least a good place holder until we can do it better.

It improves relations and I would assume at least an interpreter would be required to Establish an Embassy, so it's sort of left to the imagination to fill in the "story behind the mechanics" so to speak.

I'm fine with the placeholder.

Can Parliament be looked at? It's a very weak Civic with a High cost. It gives nothing that justifies it's cost.

In fact I'm really wondering why it's even a Civic choice as Senate is already in there.

What is the reason for having Senate and Parliament?

JosEPh

I plan to look at all the Civics actually. I just have less time at the moment so it's a little slower going now. Governments are all "done" at least, and hopefully the Flavors will diversify what the AI uses.

I don't have a good answer for your question other than to say I didn't set these Civics up But C2C will forever be a work in progress so we'll continue to chip away at the marble to reveal the work of art.

"Language" could be named "Foreign Relations" instead then perhaps as that would be more in line with what it does? Though then it becomes more like Immigration I suppose...

What it could do, apart from better relations, is grant ability to establish embassy at some point and furthermore increase Foreign Trade Route Yields by some percentages instead of bonus to Science and Culture, or a little of both.

For instance:
Native Language: Establish Embassy and Open Borders possible. Small bonus to Trade Routes. No change in relations against other nations.
Trade Language: Free Trade Agreements possible. Small Bonus to Trade Routes. Tiny increase in relations with other nations.
Interpreters: Vassalage possible (with the right techs). Medium Bonus to Trade Routes and Small additional bonus to Foreign trade Routes. Medium increase in relations with other nations.
Language Education: Large bonus to Trade Routes and additionally Medium bonus to Foreign Trade Routes. Larger increase in relations.
Universal translator. Large bonus to Trade Routes and Foreign Trade Routes. Biggest Relation increase.

Interestingly enough I had written a suggestion to change it to "Foreign Relations" but then decided against that and erased my post. Mainly because I hadn't thought it out enough in detail. Language is specific while Foreign Relations can apply to other areas, so it starts to get muddled, and that is counter productive to what I'm trying to do with the Civics (where one category has several Civics that don't feel like they belong there 100%).

Not sure why the additional Culture from language unless it's from being able to save plays, music, dances, poems, books, a.s.o. for posterity. If that's the case then either certain buildings could get a bonus in culture (library, university, a.s.o.) depending on what language civic one has.

Just my pennies worth.

Cheers

I'd assume the culture boost is to represent exchanging of cultures. But I think you're assessment is good and that's probably a good idea to make the boost only related to buildings that would benefit from interactions with other cultures-- libraries, etc. as you mentioned.

 

[little_cyclone]

Can Parliament be looked at? It's a very weak Civic with a High cost. It gives nothing that justifies it's cost.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Parliament:
Pros:
-Fixed Borders
- +25% GP
-Decreased local and national rebelliousness
- +25% Gold in capital
- Can spend gold to finish production
- Can construct House of Parliament.

Cons include:
+2 in 6 largest cities
+25% War weariness

Whats not to like about Parliament?? I always use it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The reason you disagree Cyclone is because you use REV + Fixed Borders, and probably City Limits too. Therefore 2 of it's Pros for you are important. But, if you do Not use these Options it IS a very weak Civic choice. I would only use it if I wanted to increase the difficulty of my play level.

As for the 0ther 4 Pros I need to ask how big of an impact does building the Hosue of Parliament provide? As much as the Forbidden Palace? More? Less?

There are already a 1/2 dozen other civics that allow: Can spend gold to finish production. So that to me isn't that important either.

So now we are down to +25 GP and +25 Gold in Capital. The +25 GP is good so 1 + so far.
+25 Gold in Capital is relatively weak vs even 5% Gold in Empire and this can be found in Better Civics too. I give it a +1/2 pt.

The Cons: any Civic that adds +25 WW is to be avoided if you have to fight over seas. So this is a Big one in my book. The +50% and +75% that Republic, Democracy and Federal had was overboard. But those have been looked at by Eldrin.

So there is some of my "what's Not to like about Parliament" reasons.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As for the 0ther 4 Pros I need to ask how big of an impact does building the Hosue of Parliament provide? As much as the Forbidden Palace? More? Less?

JosEPh

The same.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am having trouble combining the mod civics into the core civics. If I add them I get a an error saying that revolution info is not declared in the schema. If I change the schema to use the Afforess one then it says the city size limits are not declared in the schema.

What should I do? I don't know how to combine schemas.

Afforess_CIV4GameInfoSchema and CIV4GameInfoSchema seems to have different stuff that one has and the other doesn't

 

[little_cyclone]

The reason you disagree Cyclone is because you use REV + Fixed Borders, and probably City Limits too. Therefore 2 of it's Pros for you are important. But, if you do Not use these Options it IS a very weak Civic choice. I would only use it if I wanted to increase the difficulty of my play level.

As for the 0ther 4 Pros I need to ask how big of an impact does building the Hosue of Parliament provide? As much as the Forbidden Palace? More? Less?

There are already a 1/2 dozen other civics that allow: Can spend gold to finish production. So that to me isn't that important either.

So now we are down to +25 GP and +25 Gold in Capital. The +25 GP is good so 1 + so far.
+25 Gold in Capital is relatively weak vs even 5% Gold in Empire and this can be found in Better Civics too. I give it a +1/2 pt.

The Cons: any Civic that adds +25 WW is to be avoided if you have to fight over seas. So this is a Big one in my book. The +50% and +75% that Republic, Democracy and Federal had was overboard. But those have been looked at by Eldrin.

So there is some of my "what's Not to like about Parliament" reasons.

JosEPh

I do use REV, & Fixed Borders, tho not City Limits, that one seems pointless to me.. However, I'd have to say the +25% gold is more worthwhile then just the 1/2 point you allot . I always stack my holy shrines/corporations in my capital city, and the 25%=mucho gold, and gold makes the world go 'round

House of Parliament bonus vs Forbidden Palace, no idea.. I hardly ever build it except when I'm looking for the GP bonus the building itself provides in a specific city somewhere, or if I do have overseas cities, then I notice a difference after its construction in my new colony.

As for the war weariness factor, to be honest, I never noticed it to be a problem. That being said I have noticed that here locally, among my friends that I play, I am the odd man out in that I largely adhere to the teachings of Karl Von Clausewitz and his strategem of (if you'll pardon me for paraphrasing) moving towards a clearly defined, attainable goal that can be accomplished in a short amount of time. By that I mean not employing the mindsent of "lets see what I can get until I have to make peace" or "i'm going to war until I conquer them" (unless of course you significantly overpower them and their 2 or 3 cities and that is the goal ). But instead, of choosing a specific objective that may be accomplished in short order. Capturing or razing a specific city or three, attaining or denying resources, et al. I declare war, my schwerpunkt invades from its jumping off point, grabs its objectives and holds them until I can make peace. To that extent I'm rarely ever at war with anyone for very long, so the war weariness factor to me is fairly negligible, provided I don't push it too high like adopting Pacifist does

However, as I am one player, I am open to the opinion that the weariness factor could be reduced if enough others agree that it should be so..

 

[BlueGenie]

War Weariness has been changed in more ways than the civic changes. Winning fights doesn't add up WW anymore, only when losing units. There were some other changes Koshling did too but of the bat I don't remember what.

Cheers

 

[Necratoid]

Just as my own two cents. I'm playing v18 and never leave tribalism. I also feel skilled workers is glorious. Trade routes are a hazard in the late game. is largely infinite if your remotely compitant. The bonus food is a hazard and will end up with no way to control population growth. I have enough issues with constantly ordering people to shut up about building hidiously terrible casinos and vacation resorts without mentally trying to come up with excuses why they can't have verticle farms after declaring all their specialty farms obsolete.

More Importantly, I like Civics that add negative population growth rates. I just played space race victory on Prince and managed to get several cities above 150 with population growtth negative civics. I think the capital was at 176 and about to grow yet again (yeah vertical farms!) I ended up gunning it for ascention as a population control method. Didn't quite make it there though. (apparently that game alredy took 84 and half hours so I wasn't just waiting out the space race at that point... please ignore the whole building artificial stars things)

All in all as an enternity player I need Rev on or the AI's (particularly the Spiritual ones) will easily and gleefully build beyond 30 cities. As it is the AI's are having no issue with controling Civs wthat have a -70+ to unhappy from having to many cities alone. This is probably unnpopular but I feel REV needs to be taken up a notch or 3. Granted my 50+ automated bombers screwed was screwing up the mechanics of the revolves near me.

Seriously, +17 happy and over 100 unhappy on a city and it made people only a bit grumbly. They were also entering the modern era and I was on singularity stablization. Which is artificially inflated by the 3 fusion generators on research, but not that much.

I need some way that depleats the excess population... their is nothing to whip. The draft is useless with everyone at riflemen. Granted Its got a large component of under developed late eras. I mean space race is going to be moved to inter dimension colonizing... I need to be able to funnel excess population into something so maybe colony ships need to be sent off will unhappy due to crowding population on it.

All in all the idea of removing the agricultural controls of the civic are pure madness at this point. Though I agree that the language civic need work.... I just can't see any sane way to control population growth without an agriculture civic. Or being psychotic.

 

[bill2505]

Just as my own two cents. I'm playing v18 and never leave tribalism. I also feel skilled workers is glorious. Trade routes are a hazard in the late game. is largely infinite if your remotely compitant. The bonus food is a hazard and will end up with no way to control population growth. I have enough issues with constantly ordering people to shut up about building hidiously terrible casinos and vacation resorts without mentally trying to come up with excuses why they can't have verticle farms after declaring all their specialty farms obsolete.

More Importantly, I like Civics that add negative population growth rates. I just played space race victory on Prince and managed to get several cities above 150 with population growtth negative civics. I think the capital was at 176 and about to grow yet again (yeah vertical farms!) I ended up gunning it for ascention as a population control method. Didn't quite make it there though. (apparently that game alredy took 84 and half hours so I wasn't just waiting out the space race at that point... please ignore the whole building artificial stars things)

All in all as an enternity player I need Rev on or the AI's (particularly the Spiritual ones) will easily and gleefully build beyond 30 cities. As it is the AI's are having no issue with controling Civs wthat have a -70+ to unhappy from having to many cities alone. This is probably unnpopular but I feel REV needs to be taken up a notch or 3. Granted my 50+ automated bombers screwed was screwing up the mechanics of the revolves near me.

Seriously, +17 happy and over 100 unhappy on a city and it made people only a bit grumbly. They were also entering the modern era and I was on singularity stablization. Which is artificially inflated by the 3 fusion generators on research, but not that much.

I need some way that depleats the excess population... their is nothing to whip. The draft is useless with everyone at riflemen. Granted Its got a large component of under developed late eras. I mean space race is going to be moved to inter dimension colonizing... I need to be able to funnel excess population into something so maybe colony ships need to be sent off will unhappy due to crowding population on it.

All in all the idea of removing the agricultural controls of the civic are pure madness at this point. Though I agree that the language civic need work.... I just can't see any sane way to control population growth without an agriculture civic. Or being psychotic.

always play the latest version before you post problems

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

... I just can't see any sane way to control population growth without an agriculture civic. Or being psychotic.

Obviously I am missing something here, you just turn off growth if you want population to stop growing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Necratoid,
What difficulty level do you play on for version 18?

@DH,
Necra has stated before that he tries to see how big he can build on Settler level. So unless he has moved on to higher difficulty levels the data is skewed abit.

@cyclone,
As it has been stated WW has been reworked. It Was very Bad in v16 and 17 for protracted wars fought overseas.

JosEPh