C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Kreatur]

i depents of the country you life in, for example most european countries have state runned health insurance where everyone is forced to be in, exept the rich,(Germany) ore insurance companies have to offer a basic insurance, cheap enough for everyone.(Netherlands)

a totaly free market means that the goverment dont restrict the economie in any case. But that means you havent any employment protection ore work safety laws. this is what i want to represent, i dont say something of trade reststrictions, we havent got a lobor civics so it has to be present in economy civic

 

[Kreatur]

ps most advanced western countries have health insurance cheap enough for most people exept USA

 

[Koshling]

ps most advanced western countries have health insurance cheap enough for most people exept USA

A major driver of health costs in the USA is legal-system related, with serious costs arising from liability insurance, that in many other countries are handled differently.

 

[BlueGenie]

Most European countries don't have health insurance, they have health care. Health insurance means you pay specifically to be eligible for most care if something happens, but lots of things are exempt and if those things ail you you get no help and have to pay exuberant prices for care. Health care means you don't need to pay anything in advance as it's covered by normal taxes, and if anything happens you'll be taken care of regardless of what ails you and only have to cover a small charge rather than extortionistic prices.

Cheers

 

[Kreatur]

maybe my english isnt good enough to explain my point of view. first i am german and in germany health care isnt covered by taxes at all. we have compulsory health insurance were the state subsidiced, but everyone has to pay contributions. workers and companies pay this insurance fifty-fifty. The insurance were supervised by the governement but elsewise free. Only wealthy people are alowwed to be free from the compulsory health insurance. They are alowed to decide if they prefer privat health insurance.
the system is from nation to nation different in the european union, so i think what you said is right for france but i dont know it exactly.
anyway the point is how do we represent the lack of social service in C2C, even the civic privat is realy poverfull. But one question, what happend in a country like the USA when a person cant pay care ? i cant imagin that the system would let him dye

 

[Koshling]

maybe my english isnt good enough to explain my point of view. first i am german and in germany health care isnt covered by taxes at all. we have compulsory health insurance were the state subsidiced, but everyone has to pay contributions. workers and companies pay this insurance fifty-fifty. The insurance were supervised by the governement but elsewise free. Only wealthy people are alowwed to be free from the compulsory health insurance. They are alowed to decide if they prefer privat health insurance.
the system is from nation to nation different in the european union, so i think what you said is right for france but i dont know it exactly.
anyway the point is how do we represent the lack of social service in C2C, even the civic privat is realy poverfull. But one question, what happend in a country like the USA when a person cant pay care ? i cant imagin that the system would let him dye

The USA has a 'safety net' scheme that provides payment for a basic level of healthcare if the individual is not insured. However, it really is VERY basic.

 

[ls612]

The USA has a 'safety net' scheme that provides payment for a basic level of healthcare if the individual is not insured. However, it really is VERY basic.

Yes, it is very basic, but still you will always be seen in an ER no matter whether you can pay. Anyhow, back on topic...

 

[Praetyre]

I think Civics are one of the few areas of C2C where game balance should trump realism as a consideration. There's also the fact it'll likely rile a lot of people up if the mod is seen to favour one political system over another; for instance, if I designed it according to my political opinions, Monarchy would be more advantageous than Democracy, Open Borders would lead to massive and debt if combined with the Subsidized or Socialized civics and Free Market would give +800% , and . Whereas if a Marxist designed it, he'd probably make it most of the government civics linear, to represent the inevitable transformation of history (monarchy to capitalism to socialism to communism, for instance), and a rabid atheist would give massive science penalties to anything but the Secular and Atheist civics.

Also, civics and buildings like the Foundation and Welfare Office give benefits to and already; their absence is the penalty you'd be speaking of.

 

[BlueGenie]

Agreed Praetyre. Game balance and not favouring would be the better way to go. I'm really a bit miffed at Monarchy having happiness penalties for many cities. That means one can't keep a monarchy going once one reaches a certain amount of cities, depending on how high one's happy is. Same goes for a Republic.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Agreed Praetyre. Game balance and not favouring would be the better way to go. I'm really a bit miffed at Monarchy having happiness penalties for many cities. That means one can't keep a monarchy going once one reaches a certain amount of cities, depending on how high one's happy is. Same goes for a Republic.

Cheers

I think you can turn that off. It is the city limits/civic option on the custom game menu.

 

[BlueGenie]

Yeah, but then it's turned off for all government civics. That I don't want to do. What I do is fail to see what with Monarchy would make it limited in that way. Same with Republic.

Governments where the leader isn't all that bothered about the subjects, sure, there I see it.

Cheers

 

[Koshling]

Since the general topic of civics seems hot again, seems like a good time for an observation I have had in recent games.

Once you gt to the civic set that is enabled sometime around late industrial era (the set I was using as follows, though there are certainly alternate sets that are still solid: federal, president, liberal, free market, atheist, socialized, waste2energy, volunteer army, compulsory education, open borders, language education, corporate agriculture), there really is nothing to look forward to from techs you will get in the remaining 50% (!!) of the game. Looking at the civic choices not yet available I don't think there are any I would want to switch to anyway apart from super human/paradise; and universla translator.

In particular by 50% throguh the game you really seem to have the peak in many categories (government, power, society, economy, military, garbage, immigration, education). To be sure there are some more potentially usable options in some of these categories, but nothing obviously 'better'.

The stand-outs for that I would tweak first are:

• waste to enegery is available too soon - it's really the best on most measures
• E-education [or siome benign variant on mind control that requires a brain-machine interface] should more clarly be an improvemnt I think
• There needs to be a better aggriculture variant

 

[strategyonly]

Since the general topic of civics seems hot again, seems like a good time for an observation I have had in recent games.

Once you gt to the civic set that is enabled sometime around late industrial era (the set I was using as follows, though there are certainly alternate sets that are still solid: federal, president, liberal, free market, atheist, socialized, waste2energy, volunteer army, compulsory education, open borders, language education, corporate agriculture), there really is nothing to look forward to from techs you will get in the remaining 50% (!!) of the game. Looking at the civic choices not yet available I don't think there are any I would want to switch to anyway apart from super human/paradise; and universal translator.

In particular by 50% through the game you really seem to have the peak in many categories (government, power, society, economy, military, garbage, immigration, education). To be sure there are some more potentially usable options in some of these categories, but nothing obviously 'better'.

The stand-outs for that I would tweak first are:

• waste to energy is available too soon - it's really the best on most measures
• E-education [or some benign variant on mind control that requires a brain-machine interface] should more clearly be an improvement I think
• There needs to be a better agriculture variant

Yeah i dont know what has happened to EldrinFal, he hasn't been around since 5 Dec 11 or so, since he started this thread

But what do you mean by Agriculture Variant?

 

[Koshling]

Yeah i dont know what has happened to EldrinFal, he hasn't been around since 5 Dec 11 or so, since he started this thread

But what do you mean by Agriculture Variant?

Another civic choice in Agriculture that is clearly better in some way. Hyproponic orbital farming or something lol. Ocean farming. I dunno.

 

[AIAndy]

Another civic choice in Agriculture that is clearly better in some way. Hyproponic orbital farming or something lol. Ocean farming. I dunno.

But isn't the point of civics that you have a choice?
If one civic is clearly better than all other civics in the same category, then there is no choice. Unless it is kind of tiered and you get multiple civics that are better than the old ones but represent different choices between each other.

 

[Stormwind]

What I would like to see is this:

Up until late rennaissance/early industrial civics getting better with tech (faster building of more modern buildings, fewer food for city growth etc)
After that having 2-4 choices with different "sets" possible. Eg in agricultural there are currently a civic with flat -20% food for growth and another -10% food for growth but with an additional "trade adds food". This allows for either relaying on trade to get more food or to simply go for the flat bonus, like when operating with closed borders/nationalism with no intercivic trade.

 

[Koshling]

But isn't the point of civics that you have a choice?
If one civic is clearly better than all other civics in the same category, then there is no choice. Unless it is kind of tiered and you get multiple civics that are better than the old ones but represent different choices between each other.

Yes, but right now theer is a best choice and you get it quite early in most catagroies. Later options should be better IN SOME ASPECT is all I meant, so that they really are a sensible choice.

 

[ls612]

Yeah i dont know what has happened to EldrinFal, he hasn't been around since 5 Dec 11 or so, since he started this thread

But what do you mean by Agriculture Variant?

If EldrinFal isn't here anymore I could help with the civics, as the units I'm making aren't taking too much time.

 

[strategyonly]

If EldrinFal isn't here anymore I could help with the civics, as the units I'm making aren't taking too much time.

Its really not a matter of helping out, its a matter of view points vs real life vs game situations vs having alot of knowledge to do with the main subject. I hope that makes sense

 

[Hydromancerx]

Bumping for MrAzure.