C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Flinx]

Because that is how the AI sets how far apart it keeps it's cities, assuming everything else is equal IIRC.

That is obvoius.
But how do transfer this AI code into city limits, this is what i am interested about in general and in city scaling especially.

To my understanding city limits is not adjusted to the world size in the way how many cities you can sqeeze in by a 21-tile base.

I simply do not get it while you have world size standard as base for calculating why the numbers for my game and world size giant are smaller than the given ones in the appropriate civic file.

Maybe a simple division of world size (in squares) divided by the city limit as base with a multiplication by hte ratio between the world sizes would do it.

City limits is not about how many cities i can put in the world (that -could- be a factor) but in how to slow down early land grab.

Again, maybe i'm only too short-sighted to see the big picture.


@ DH: thanks, you made my evening.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

So I am thinking that perhaps we should apply crime vs anti-crime to some of the Immigration civics. Such as ...

- Open Borders = + Crime
- Closed Borders = - Crime
- Skilled Workers Only = - Crime
- Secure Borders = Lots of - Crime

I am also thinking that disease might want to be applied too. If you have closed borders for instance disease like the plague cannot enter your lands as easily.

What do you think?

EDIT: Here is the code for crime. Just throught it should be written somewhere in this thread.

			<PropertyManipulators>
  				<PropertySource>
   					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
						<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
						<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
						<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
						<iAmountPerTurn>-10</iAmountPerTurn>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

This means that there is -10 Crime per turn in each of of your cities while a civic is selected.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

@CIVPlayer8

So I am thinking that perhaps we should apply crime vs anti-crime to some of the Immigration civics. Such as ...

- Open Borders = + Crime
- Closed Borders = - Crime
- Skilled Workers Only = - Crime
- Secure Borders = Lots of - Crime

I am also thinking that disease might want to be applied too. If you have closed borders for instance disease like the plague cannot enter your lands as easily.

What do you think?

EDIT: Here is the code for crime. Just throught it should be written somewhere in this thread.

			<PropertyManipulators>
  				<PropertySource>
   					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
						<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
						<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
						<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
						<iAmountPerTurn>-10</iAmountPerTurn>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

This means that there is -10 Crime per turn in each of of your cities while a civic is selected.

Yes, I like it. I was going to get around to doing this eventually anyways, and take out the +1 from Open Borders. Were you going to do this, or me?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yes, I like it. I was going to get around to doing this eventually anyways, and take out the +1 from Open Borders. Were you going to do this, or me?

I will leave it to you now that your back. Which is why I was asking you opinion on it too.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@CIVPlayer8

So I am thinking that perhaps we should apply crime vs anti-crime to some of the Immigration civics. Such as ...

- Open Borders = + Crime
- Closed Borders = - Crime
- Skilled Workers Only = - Crime
- Secure Borders = Lots of - Crime

I am also thinking that disease might want to be applied too. If you have closed borders for instance disease like the plague cannot enter your lands as easily.

What do you think?

EDIT: Here is the code for crime. Just throught it should be written somewhere in this thread.

			<PropertyManipulators>
  				<PropertySource>
   					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
						<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
						<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
						<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
						<iAmountPerTurn>-10</iAmountPerTurn>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

This means that there is -10 Crime per turn in each of of your cities while a civic is selected.

I would have thought Closed Borders would have increased crime eg smuggling.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would have thought Closed Borders would have increased crime eg smuggling.

That's a tough debate if closed borders causes more or less crime.

 

[GT Ranma]

I am also thinking that disease might want to be applied too. If you have closed borders for instance disease like the plague cannot enter your lands as easily.

Ahh, but in modern times, it would be opposite. Just look at North Korea, there is a lot more starving and illness there because they can't get the access to modern healthcare supplies and what not.

... I really wish Technologies could effect the civics. It could definitely imitate the growth and change of each civic as the world grew in technology.

For example, the reason there is a 2 month wait between when the Pres in America is selected, and when he is sworn was so that the ballets from the outlining states could be counted and brought back by horse. That amount of time was needed just to be able to see who it was. Now we know who is the new Pres before the next morning...

 

[Yid]

How about these civics. I know they are only rough ideas:

Education:
- Brain Tapes - knowledge can be bought on tapes and imported directly to the human brain. Might need a special building to function well, like "brain taping studio", +Science -freedom
- Brain Washing - a more simple form similar to Brain Tapes; bad Thoughts etc. will just be erased. +happiness, -freedom. Might need a police station or something more advanced to work efficiently. Works better with Facism, Junta, Martial Law, Mind Control.

Garbage:
- recycling: enables recycling plant, maybe gives some metals like iron, copper, tin etc.

Immigration:
- Greencards: gives free specialists for some buildings, like +1 Scientist for University.
- Refugee camps: may be useful if you or your neighbors are warring. Enables Refugee camp: -war weariness. +food (in the end, population will grow, which is expressed by food), -money, works better with Democracy, Egalitarianism; effect depending on number of wars / military units in wars.
- Wealthy People only: +money, maybe +1 Celebrity per City or something, extra + effects for casinos.

Power:
- Supercomputer: a Supercomputer manages the state. Decisions are made and laws are creates by complex algorithms. Enables Supercomputer (National Wonder) which acts like another palace; +money, -freedom.


Language:
Neighbors language: you speak a language similar to those of a neighbor state. It is easy for them to understand you and vice versa: + relation to the biggest neighbor. (like spanish and italian)
World language: like Esperanto or current english. Everybody speaks a language which is used world wide. +relations

Currency:
- rare items (available before metals) like shells or pearls.

what do you think?

 

[CIVPlayer8]

How about these civics. I know they are only rough ideas:

Education:
- Brain Tapes - knowledge can be bought on tapes and imported directly to the human brain. Might need a special building to function well, like "brain taping studio", +Science -freedom
- Brain Washing - a more simple form similar to Brain Tapes; bad Thoughts etc. will just be erased. +happiness, -freedom. Might need a police station or something more advanced to work efficiently. Works better with Facism, Junta, Martial Law, Mind Control.

Garbage:
- recycling: enables recycling plant, maybe gives some metals like iron, copper, tin etc.

Immigration:
- Greencards: gives free specialists for some buildings, like +1 Scientist for University.
- Refugee camps: may be useful if you or your neighbors are warring. Enables Refugee camp: -war weariness. +food (in the end, population will grow, which is expressed by food), -money, works better with Democracy, Egalitarianism; effect depending on number of wars / military units in wars.
- Wealthy People only: +money, maybe +1 Celebrity per City or something, extra + effects for casinos.

Power:
- Supercomputer: a Supercomputer manages the state. Decisions are made and laws are creates by complex algorithms. Enables Supercomputer (National Wonder) which acts like another palace; +money, -freedom.


Language:
Neighbors language: you speak a language similar to those of a neighbor state. It is easy for them to understand you and vice versa: + relation to the biggest neighbor. (like spanish and italian)
World language: like Esperanto or current english. Everybody speaks a language which is used world wide. +relations

Currency:
- rare items (available before metals) like shells or pearls.

what do you think?

I do like Brain Tapes, or something like that. I've wanted to add another transhuman Education civic, but haven't gotten to it. And I moved Mind Control from Education to Rule a few weeks ago. Brain Washing sounds a lot like Mind COntrol, and Education is about how you're people "learn", not what they're not allowed to learn. Greencards, Wealthy People Only, Recycling, Supercomputer, and Rare Items are all good. Especially "Rare Items", because I know he jump from -30% to -10% is too big a jump. World Language...Maybe. We'll see. But for Refugee Camps and Neigbors Language, maybe not. We already have a "Refugee Camp" building, and ones immigration wouldn't really be to accept refugees only. I will probably add "Rare Items" relatively soon, but the others might have to wait. I have to get caught up with my plans first. Thanks for the suggestions

Okay, I have been thinking of redoing the Economy Civics now, and this is what I have come up with:
-Communualism: Bad civic, move away from ASAP
-Barter: Less cons than Communualism, boost in
-Subsistence: Less cons than Communualism, boost in
-Trade(New): Biggest bonus for trade, + in Market buildings,
-Guilds: Required to construct the Guild National Wonders, overall balanced civic
-Mercantilism: Huge plus, even more with access to Gold/Silver resources, high inflation, no foreign trade
-Free Market: Second best Trade Civic, best , some
-Corporatist: Corporations much cheaper, overall balanced
-Planned: Big , rushing with gold cheaper, but minus /trade
-Regulated: Bit weaker than Free MArket, no , more
-Green: Lots of , minus pollution, +improvement strength, less , expensive, hurts corporations

 

[Praetyre]

That's an interesting point. We do seem to have somewhat of a big gap in the Ancient-Classical period for those types of economy;

Spoiler :

Communalism: Paleolithic societies, with no concept of transferable property rights, only basic ownership by the individual, family or band of resources or territory. Continued in modern form by the San bushmen of Southern Africa and the inuit.
Barter: Upper Paleolithic societies, where the first form of transferable property occurs between bands and/or tribes. No modern analogues I'm aware of.
Subsistence: Neolithic societies based on Barter but with more of a focus on an autarkic survivalist economy than intergroup cooperation. Still prevalent throughout much of modern rural Africa.
Guilds: High Middle Ages cartel based economy system, which can operate on all scales. Elements of this are still present in certain professions in modern Western countries, particularily highly unionized ones. Some overlap with Labor civics.
Mercantilism: European Renaissance policy emphasizing autarkic economic nationalism. Dominant form of Western economy from the 16th century through to the 1930s.
Free Market: An industrialized capitalist economy unhampered by government intervention beyond basic protection against force and fraud, as well as the enforcement of contracts through government courts. Close analogues exist in the Western Frontier of the 19th century United States and until recently, Hong Kong.
Corporatist: A modern industrialized economy centred around the advancement of large hierarchical firms. Typically functions as a hybrid of Guilds and Mercantilism, though catering to foreign corporations is possible too. Modern day examples include the Russian Federation and Singapore.
Planned: A modern industrialized economy which chooses the "Socialist" side of Ludwig von Mises' Capitalism-Socialism dichotomy, usually influenced heavily by Marxian communism. Historical examples include Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, modern examples are more scant.
Regulated: A modern industrialized economy where large unelected bureaucracies exert control over the operations of private enterprise. In effect, a hybrid of Free Market and Planned elements. Most modern nations have adopted this form of economy.
Green: A futuristic economy based not upon the goal of furthering mankind, but of preserving the ecosystem. Prototypical forms can be found in Bolivia, Germany and some of the Scandinavian nations.

That leaves a rather large gap for the sophisticated economies of the Chalcolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages, which frequently included Subsistence and Guild elements at their early and late period. Trade feels like too simple a name, though, and gives off the impression of an export consumer goods economy akin to modern China rather than a potentially autarkic domestic industries economy.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I see that Slavery is Still The OP Civic.

+35% Hammers from Trade? Really?
+10% Hammer all cities
Workers build improvements 25% faster? Who says a slave works faster
Workers Trained 100% faster? Workers are not slaves why workers trained 100% Faster Outrageous
50% faster Serv Qtr (more hammers), Slave market

20% Food from Trade Rte more than offset +25% More food for City growth,Plus you added +1 Food form farms. More Food all the way around.

And this is all offset by a paltry +2 and +2

Even the Maint. Costs are offset and negated by the Gold/Commerce generated from other componenets.

This is a Giant step backwards.

And you Really think the AI will leave this Civic?

This is just sick.

JosEPh

 

[LumenAngel]

I prefer Guild than Slavery for renaissance and after.
Because slave are less effective ad dont give any GP.
The food from trade route is negated (and worse) by the +25% food for grow
And after humanism, it become quite bad without the slave market.

The problem is more about the 2 between. There are really too low and dont give you a true choice for ancient/classical era.

 

[Koshling]

I see that Slavery is Still The OP Civic.

+35% Hammers from Trade? Really?
+10% Hammer all cities
Workers build improvements 25% faster? Who says a slave works faster
Workers Trained 100% faster? Workers are not slaves why workers trained 100% Faster Outrageous
50% faster Serv Qtr (more hammers), Slave market

20% Food from Trade Rte more than offset +25% More food for City growth,Plus you added +1 Food form farms. More Food all the way around.

And this is all offset by a paltry +2 and +2

Even the Maint. Costs are offset and negated by the Gold/Commerce generated from other componenets.

This is a Giant step backwards.

And you Really think the AI will leave this Civic?

This is just sick.

JosEPh

Latest version doesn't have GP rate malus or instability penalty?

 

[Yudishtira]

Who says a slave works faster

No-one. But the worker has a slave so the two of them together work faster.

You could be right - I don't have much experience to go on. I'm enjoying Slavery in my current game - then again the game's going pretty cruisy. In my last game, I never used it - it sounded hideous. I didn't know about Slave Markets then, but still.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you notice Slavery is going, going, almost gone as a civic as we get the effects of having slaves being reflected in buildings and civics. It does not even exist in the CIVPlayer8's latest list, so what is the point in complaining about something being OP when it will be gone

I am almost at the stage of replacing the current Slave capturing system with the new one. I am bogged down on a couple of things

1) Captive Civilians wont join a city like the Immigrant does.

2) In A New Dawn (not RoM:AND but the other one) the slave versions of the build (farm, mine etc.) are not cluttering up things but they look like duplicates in C2C. Ie on agriculture tech it says you "can build a farm" and "can build a farm". One for the normal worker and one for the captive.

 

[ls612]

I see that Slavery is Still The OP Civic.

+35% Hammers from Trade? Really?
+10% Hammer all cities
Workers build improvements 25% faster? Who says a slave works faster
Workers Trained 100% faster? Workers are not slaves why workers trained 100% Faster Outrageous
50% faster Serv Qtr (more hammers), Slave market

20% Food from Trade Rte more than offset +25% More food for City growth,Plus you added +1 Food form farms. More Food all the way around.

And this is all offset by a paltry +2 and +2

Even the Maint. Costs are offset and negated by the Gold/Commerce generated from other componenets.

This is a Giant step backwards.

And you Really think the AI will leave this Civic?

This is just sick.

JosEPh

It costs more to keep up, gives others happiness bonuses, and makes cities grow slower (that one is a real killer for early-game development). So I'd say one takes it at their own risk.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you notice Slavery is going, going, almost gone as a civic as we get the effects of having slaves being reflected in buildings and civics. It does not even exist in the CIVPlayer8's latest list, so what is the point in complaining about something being OP when it will be gone

This is straight from SVN 4896 on a New game. I don't see it going, going, going. It's still here.

It costs more to keep up, gives others happiness bonuses, and makes cities grow slower (that one is a real killer for early-game development). So I'd say one takes it at their own risk.

What risk? It easily compensates for the 25% MC in both categories Distance and Number.
No it doesn't make cities grow slower because the "20% Food from Trade Rte more than offsets the +25% More food for City growth, Plus you added +1 Food form farms. More Food all the way around". Oh well the AI likes it.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

This is straight from SVN 4896 on a New game. I don't see it going, going, going. It's still here.



What risk? It easily compensates for the 25% MC in both categories Distance and Number.
No it doesn't make cities grow slower because the "20% Food from Trade Rte more than offsets the +25% More food for City growth, Plus you added +1 Food form farms. More Food all the way around". Oh well the AI likes it.

JosEPh

20% food from trade increases the food from trade routes by 20% - typically in the ancient era that's worth 1-2 food. 25% more to grow is several hundred extra food to grow. They in no way cancel out.

 

[GT Ranma]

@Hydro, DH or ls:

When you first research a tech with a new civic, it pops up that window asking if you want to change civics or not.

What I was wondering is: How much leeway do we have with that window? Can we resize it?

I was thinking, if we can, of putting more information in that window, so the user can make a more informed choice then currently is. I'd like to make it so people who don't really use (or want to put to much time into going over them all) civics could, through that popup, make an informed decision on if they should switch or stay the same.

Know what I mean? I am in a hurry, and not sure if I am getting my point across.

 

[Hydromancerx]

How about these civics. I know they are only rough ideas:

Education:
- Brain Tapes - knowledge can be bought on tapes and imported directly to the human brain. Might need a special building to function well, like "brain taping studio", +Science -freedom
- Brain Washing - a more simple form similar to Brain Tapes; bad Thoughts etc. will just be erased. +happiness, -freedom. Might need a police station or something more advanced to work efficiently. Works better with Facism, Junta, Martial Law, Mind Control.

Garbage:
- recycling: enables recycling plant, maybe gives some metals like iron, copper, tin etc.

Immigration:
- Greencards: gives free specialists for some buildings, like +1 Scientist for University.
- Refugee camps: may be useful if you or your neighbors are warring. Enables Refugee camp: -war weariness. +food (in the end, population will grow, which is expressed by food), -money, works better with Democracy, Egalitarianism; effect depending on number of wars / military units in wars.
- Wealthy People only: +money, maybe +1 Celebrity per City or something, extra + effects for casinos.

Power:
- Supercomputer: a Supercomputer manages the state. Decisions are made and laws are creates by complex algorithms. Enables Supercomputer (National Wonder) which acts like another palace; +money, -freedom.


Language:
Neighbors language: you speak a language similar to those of a neighbor state. It is easy for them to understand you and vice versa: + relation to the biggest neighbor. (like spanish and italian)
World language: like Esperanto or current english. Everybody speaks a language which is used world wide. +relations

Currency:
- rare items (available before metals) like shells or pearls.

what do you think?

1. Well Mind control was originally in Education but CIVPlayer8 moved it.

2. I don't think recycling should be limited to a civic. You should be able to recycle independent upon the civic choice.

3a. Green Card is already covered with Skilled Workers.

3b. Refugee camp is already a building.

3c. Wealthy people only? I do not think that is realistic.

4. That seems more like a building or wonder than a civic.

5. How would you ever specify which neighbor?

6. I don't think a world language would ever be possible. However the universal translator is as close as you can get. Which is already a civic.

7. That seems too much like barter or metals.