C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Thunderbrd]

Update

- use new capture mechanics provided by TB now used in capture slaves.

This means we may now begin considering civics influence the nation's units so that they become either better or worse at capturing or resisting capture when defeated. I believe currently civics are the primary source of these modifiers already but now its an XML tag and should be taken into full consideration throughout the Civic structure.

These can also be applied by Buildings (for local and national effect), Traits, to Units directly and on Promotions so I'm going off to mention it in those spots (unmentioned already) as well.

On Civics, the tags are <iNationalCaptureProbabilityModifier> and <iNationalCaptureResistanceModifier>.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am already having bandits and mercs affect the capture rate. Perhaps we need something for these in the pedia? That will require you TB to expose more variables/methods to python.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The tags do come with a display line when used. If a display line isn't working I should be informed.

I shouldn't need to expose those tags to python so you can build a display line when there should already be one generated by the dll no?

Or am I misreading you here? I suppose you could be saying you need a pair of modifiers by CombatClass when on a particular civic?

BTW: nice application to have Bandits and Mercs have increased capture values... I like it.

I've been considering giving a new Combat Class outside of Criminal for Bandits and Mercenaries... do you think it would be useful for them? I don't feel they are directly comparable to other Criminal line units as they are a bit too militant and less about stealth. And they could have some unique promos of their own (such as to further enhance capture values whereas other Criminals may not be best suited for the same effects.)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The tags do come with a display line when used. If a display line isn't working I should be informed.

I shouldn't need to expose those tags to python so you can build a display line when there should already be one generated by the dll no?

Or am I misreading you here? I suppose you could be saying you need a pair of modifiers by CombatClass when on a particular civic?

The pedia is python so they need to be exposed some how. I was thinking of the extra info on units, buildings, promotions and civics in the pedia but then I thought it needs to show up on the civics screen also since it may affect your choice of units.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The pedia is python so they need to be exposed some how. I was thinking of the extra info on units, buildings, promotions and civics in the pedia but then I thought it needs to show up on the civics screen also since it may affect your choice of units.

Are you saying that you're having a civic directly modify the capture abilities of particular unit classes and that's not getting any mention in the civic breakdown on the civic screen?

I'm trying to understand, in greater detail, what it is you're trying to accomplish exactly. There's a high likelihood that the display can be handled in the dll or that we could use an additional tag somewhere that does what you're having done along with providing a display for it.

I have no problem with exposing the whole structure for you though. I just want to try to make your life easier and if you have found you want to manipulate the capture values in a way I haven't provided, then perhaps in the future, without having to go back to the python to do it, the groundwork should be laid so it can be simply done in the xml settings.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am saying that there is now two tags on the civics which affect unit capture. On the civic screen there should be something that says one of the following for being captured

This civic increases the chance that your units may be captured rather than killed.
This civic decreases the chance that your units may be captured rather than killed.
This civic no affect on the chance that your units may be captured rather than killed.
​

and one of the following for capturing

This civic increases your chance of capturing units.
This civic decreases your chance of capturing units.
This civic no affect on your chance of capturing units.​

Similarly something in the pedia for each unit, promotion, civic and building. After all you get information about exp and str.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... So as far as I know that should already be in place. (Ok, it doesn't say anything for NO chance and it gives the exact % modifier) But use of the tags provided should already result in those display lines being delivered. Is this not happening? If not, I believe I should be able to include them and that it is an oversight that they have not been. Otherwise, perhaps you're completely right in saying that the Civics text displays in the civics screen is entirely python guided in which case, I'm quite happy to have those reported for you within the hr.

The lines in the pedia REALLY should be showing up in all those categories as it is now.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I may have spoken too soon... I forgot I was already stuck in a project. I'll need to copy it tomorrow and revert to the current source codes so that I can manipulate it to report - either that or wait til this project is sorted out first. But I'll get it for you soon.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

hmm... So as far as I know that should already be in place. (Ok, it doesn't say anything for NO chance and it gives the exact % modifier) But use of the tags provided should already result in those display lines being delivered. Is this not happening? If not, I believe I should be able to include them and that it is an oversight that they have not been. Otherwise, perhaps you're completely right in saying that the Civics text displays in the civics screen is entirely python guided in which case, I'm quite happy to have those reported for you within the hr.

The lines in the pedia REALLY should be showing up in all those categories as it is now.

Don't worry it does. I must have been looking at one where I had turned of the capture stuff while testing some other stuff

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah? Cool... I thought it should've but I haven't worked on Civics tags much so I wasn't sure if it would do so automatically in the Civics screen as it would in the help hover.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So I finally made it to the Trans-Human Era in my game and got Paradise civic. However its "No from Buildings" is WAY too powerful. I suggest we remove that and add in like a huge reduction to air and water pollution in all cities plus some more . That way you get a big boost to health and fighting pollution but still much watch your from buildings. Especially the pseudo-buildings like crime, pests, pollution and disease.

 

[Snofru1]

So I finally made it to the Trans-Human Era in my game and got Paradise civic. However its "No from Buildings" is WAY too powerful. I suggest we remove that and add in like a huge reduction to air and water pollution in all cities plus some more . That way you get a big boost to health and fighting pollution but still much watch your from buildings. Especially the pseudo-buildings like crime, pests, pollution and disease.

Now that´s an excellent idea!

 

[Arakhor]

Immigration
No Borders: None
Open Borders: Alphabet
Closed Borders: Alphabet
Skilled Workers Only: Applied Economics
Secure Borders: Applied Economics

What is the point of this civic? It only has two tech requirements, hundreds of turns apart and, as such, could probably be better served with new techs or buildings. Something that you update only two or three times in an entire game hardly merits an entire civic category.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I agree. I have posted some suggested changes but I am told those suggestions make no sense if you "start as minors". Which, to me, suggests that this civic should only be in game if you have selected that option. Both the AI and I choose "Close Borders" at Alphabet and then ignore this civic.

 

[Arakhor]

It also seems to rather make a mockery of the "Open Borders" diplomatic option. A civic should be something that continually defines a part of your government and society, rather than being a choice between Imperial Japan, UKIP and the Daily Fail's fantasies of enforced mass immigration.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Immigration
No Borders: None
Open Borders: Alphabet
Closed Borders: Alphabet
Skilled Workers Only: Applied Economics
Secure Borders: Applied Economics

What is the point of this civic? It only has two tech requirements, hundreds of turns apart and, as such, could probably be better served with new techs or buildings. Something that you update only two or three times in an entire game hardly merits an entire civic category.

Because Civics can do stuff that buildings cannot. And as I recall these are from Afforess Rewritten Civics document that he never got around to code but I did. While I don't always agree with his ideas I thought these were good ideas.

 

[Arakhor]

Then it needs more options with more tech points to be a civic in the classic sense of the term. Two points centuries apart do not a civic make.

 

[Yudishtira]

Both the AI and I choose "Close Borders" at Alphabet and then ignore this civic.

Do you (and they) really ??? I have been in Closed Borders for quite a while through the Medieval in my current game, but it would never occur to me to give up external trade for the rest of the game, especially way back at Alphabet. Imho Closed Borders should be a special-case or short-term option. If everyone is always better off without external trade, then something is clearly wrong, don't you agree?

I'll say this for it - Closed Borders has a very 'calming' effect on crime. Almost alarmingly so!!! I've just revolted back to Open, but right now I'm not sure if I'll ever be on top of the crime generated by that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It probably explains why I am short of cash and have no crime

 

[Koshling]

Interesting. I pretty much switch to en orders and then forget it. Trade is just so immensely powerful if you do not follow a very aggressive military strategy. It produces huge amounts of (variously depending on other civics) gold, food, or production.