C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Sgtslick]

@ilduce349 interesting thoughts, thanks.

 

[LumenAngel]

Meritocracy: Increases commerce and production, not science. 2 local instability, 2 national instability.

Disagree.
Meritocraty is taking the best, even of they are from lower class. it must be some light inrese for everything, good birthrate bonus end heavy cost.
An alternate posibilité is a +1 bonus to every Specialist (culture fro artist, gold for marchad, sciecen for scientist...)

Federal: Less Maintenance due to distance (that’s kinda the point of a federal system, electing local representatives in government would make lands distant to the capital easier to manage, and therefore require less maintenance), lowers gold of capital, increases commerce in all cities

Agree. But decrease all bonus from palace look better than just a lower gold.

Grid: Larger instability penalty for adopting civic (represents the time between initial and full implementation), requires more food for a city to grow. Big brother increases suicide rate and decreases opportunities for sex (knowing your being watched makes you more uneasy), thus would slow population growth rate. Greatly increases espionage. +1 free spy per city. Grid also decreases crime.

Disagree with the slow population grow. Lot of country with an heavy surveillance of population have hifgh birth rate. When being watched is as natural as brething, it's no more a problem.

Caste: New units receive 3 Experience. -5% science. Caste is the civic that rejects change of any kind the most. While the birth rate penalty does reflect this, I think a science penalty would fit Caste more.

Disagree. Caste id for me one of the worst civics. Add another strong malus is not a good adea...

Guilds: Removed the science bonus. Increased the food and production and culture bonuses. -10% trade route yield.

Agree. And please, the Guild Hall is just TOO powerfull

Mercenaries: No complaints

Complaints. Add another +1 gold/units. Mercenaries is the best military Civics until cloning. You can have easily strong units. In Medieval Era, the gold is no more a problem... And if you have yout Cruasaders spawminig in your Sholin Temple' city... Some free win in wars...

Exportation: -10% gold/city

Disagree.. Heavy maintenance is enough.

Language: No complaints

Complaints ^^
I think Language civics have to add bonus to trade route with others civs.
And the easiest your population can understand the ennemies, the less they want to fight them because they look like more "lihe them". So an increase Unhapiness from war for the lasts one.

 

[DRJ]

Disagree with the slow population grow. Lot of country with an heavy surveillance of population have hifgh birth rate. When being watched is as natural as brething, it's no more a problem.

I think the population growth rate drop is partly justified.
When reading "1984" of Orwell, the totalitarian surveillance state he described discouraged relations and children, at least for the functionaries; and the Proles also had their problem with the children, telling on their on parents... not the best climate for population growth.

So on the one hand we have the withdrawal of society into the smallest cell, the family; and as the families privacy - especially big families, ultimately growing to small clans -
is a threat to the states authority and undermining it by establishing alternative structures of power, the autotharian state tries to disrupt families and huge families are more unlikely in such a state.

The capitalistic system, as well, destroys relations between humans. As only a mentally weak worker with no backup of a strong organization (labour unions as the modern "clans") is feasible for efficient exploitation to maximize profits.

What we can say is the higher the surveillance combined with authoritanism, the lesser the population growth.

In ancient times, let alone the prehistoric era, surveillance was almost total, the concept of privacy non existant. But only if the level of autotharianism exceeded a certain point and the punishments were not only because of "just" reasons (to the majority of the group) but to keep fear up to stay in power etc., surveillance was seen as something discouraging to population growth. Who, after all, likes to fornicate in a cave with pleasure if they know evil leader is watching and will, if there is a child, probably kill it to have no competion for his power?

 

[ilduce349]

Disagree.
Meritocraty is taking the best, even of they are from lower class. it must be some light inrese for everything, good birthrate bonus end heavy cost.
An alternate posibilité is a +1 bonus to every Specialist (culture fro artist, gold for marchad, sciecen for scientist...)

I guess that makes sense.

Disagree with the slow population grow. Lot of country with an heavy surveillance of population have hifgh birth rate. When being watched is as natural as brething, it's no more a problem.

Fair enough, I see your point. Just from experience I feel really uncomfortable when being watched and couldn't imagine doing anything under the watchful eye of big brother, but I suppose humans are pretty adaptable.

And I suppose that birthrates have declined as we have gotten richer regardless of being in a free country or an authoritarian one.

Which speaking of which I think is a good idea, that certain modern era techs increase the food required for growth, representing that modern countries have significantly lower birth rates.

Disagree. Caste id for me one of the worst civics. Add another strong malus is not a good adea...

I've never gotten out of the classical era in C2C because of my insistence of playing Eternity speed, so I wasn't sure how underpowered it is.

I'd much rather happiness and stability bonuses to try to balance the civic then not have the penalty that I see as the biggest representative of the downside of having a Caste.

I'd rather a science penalty then a great person growth penalty for caste...

Complaints. Add another +1 gold/units. Mercenaries is the best military Civics until cloning. You can have easily strong units. In Medieval Era, the gold is no more a problem... And if you have yout Cruasaders spawminig in your Sholin Temple' city... Some free win in wars...

I've never played as a mercenary so I can't say how good or bad it is. I suppose if it is over powered then we have to nerf it.

Disagree.. Heavy maintenance is enough.

But your paying for gold...

I think Language civics have to add bonus to trade route with others civs.
And the easiest your population can understand the ennemies, the less they want to fight them because they look like more "lihe them". So an increase Unhapiness from war for the lasts one.

Fair enough, by the time I got to language I had already worked on this for 4-5 hours, so it was more of me trying to rush the ending then actually having no complaints.

While I do agree with the importance of language on trade, I don't want it too powerful. Should we maybe reduce to beaker rate of the later techs, or is the +80% science really that necessary?

Remember, I said in my post that as someone I'm not looking at balance (since I don't actually know what is and isn't balanced), I'm looking for realism. However I do want a reasonable amount of balance as well.

The capitalistic system, as well, destroys relations between humans. As only a mentally weak worker with no backup of a strong organization (labour unions as the modern "clans") is feasible for efficient exploitation to maximize profits.

Umm what? lol

 

[Azurian]

I have some new Civics I want to add to the game, especially Transhuman ones. Do I post them here?

For Rule:
Matriarchy (signature traits are -disease, +worker speed, +worker production, - culture, -great general rate)
Patriarchy (signature traits are -crime, - war weariness, + military production, - science, - birth rate)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We had them in but they were removed and I miss them. They were in the prehistoric era but can't remember the civic they were in. I think you have them too late in the tech tree as evidence suggests both existed before sedentary lifestyle.

 

[Azurian]

We had them in but they were removed and I miss them. They were in the prehistoric era but can't remember the civic they were in. I think you have them too late in the tech tree as evidence suggests both existed before sedentary lifestyle.

I probably do, and it will need to be reevaluated. The Old Kindom of Egypt was a Matriarchy and so were followers of Gaia.
It goes alot deeper than just having women be the main source of power, the source below explains in great detail.

http://www.hagia.de/en/matriarchy.html

Matriarchal societies are consciously built upon these maternal values and motherly work, and this is why they are much more realistic than patriarchies. They are, on principle, need-oriented. Their precepts aim to meet everyone’s needs with the greatest benefit. So, in matriarchies, mothering – which originates as a biological fact – is transformed into a cultural model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

---
I don't know where it would fit, but Patriotism should be a Civic, again it goes much deeper than a "love ones homeland". Emma Goldman (1905) had a famous article called Patriotism: Menace to Society on its negatives and called it a "superstition".

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is much simpler than that - you know who the mother of a child is.

 

[Hydromancerx]

We had them in but they were removed and I miss them. They were in the prehistoric era but can't remember the civic they were in. I think you have them too late in the tech tree as evidence suggests both existed before sedentary lifestyle.

I think it was Cultural Identity or something like that. And yes I liked them too. I even had nice icon/buttons for them (they were playing cards).

 

[Loffas]

I have an idea.
Perhaps different civics could work together in a way of combinations. Like with 3 or maybe more togerther you can get a speciall kind of goverment.
In other ways, you could get special bonuses in an event thanks to your combination of civic choice.

Also I been thinking that some of the civics also includes an other of the civics in the same tree, or that you perhaps could choose that one too. I´m now thinking firstly about Merithocracy, that probebly, might, could be included in later civics.
There might be other civics in other trees that are in the same way.

Also there would be cool if you could have control over some laws. Perhaps in a own window, and depending on some of the civics you have the law choices are different and work better or worse depending on civics.

I´m not so experinced with programming but in this field i could try to help out, atleast with some of the combination effects and laws. Realism in this field would of course give a better effect/experience.

BR Loffas

 

[Faustmouse]

Also there would be cool if you could have control over some laws. Perhaps in a own window, and depending on some of the civics you have the law choices are different and work better or worse depending on civics.

I´m not so experinced with programming but in this field i could try to help out, atleast with some of the combination effects and laws. Realism in this field would of course give a better effect/experience.

We have something like "laws". They are called Ordinances. Or Worldviews to some extent.
What laws are you thinking of? I guess you are not talking about the "It's prohibited to tie a crocodile at a hydrant!" kind of laws

 

[Thunderbrd]

We have something like "laws". They are called Ordinances. Or Worldviews to some extent.
What laws are you thinking of? I guess you are not talking about the "It's prohibited to tie a crocodile at a hydrant!" kind of laws

It is in fact an eventual plan to have a set of Policies, something like a list of yes/no options that are like mini-civic selections you can decide upon. It's on the list of tasks anyhow. Been pushed a ways down at this point with other priorities taking the fore.

 

[Loffas]

Fastmouse:
no maybe not that kind of laws. But perhaps some kind of policies that Thunderbird wrote.
The world views was a brilliant way of introducing something in your civ that are so significant like slavary or calabalism.
I have seen the ordinances features but i havn´t really seen the effects of them.

What i was thinking was that civics(maybe some wonders, events or cultures or the new education points) could alow some laws to be inacted. ex. with beuracracy a new way of conscripting troops or collect tax. The new ways could be better in some ways but worse in others. And you could choose not to implement them.
Then there could be laws also in degrees that comes with technology. Like press freedom or banking laws.
To have a separate tab for only laws could be a way to have oversight. There is a strategy game called europa universalis that have a tab for laws. Something like that, but of course different, could work for civilization.

But I think we should skip the law: "It's prohibited to tie a crocodile at a hydrant!"

 

[Yudishtira]

But I think we should skip the law: "It's prohibited to tie a crocodile at a hydrant!"

Absolutely! So many avoidable crocodile-related casualties before the invention of the hydrant! (Now they only kill dogs and firemen...)

 

[Faustmouse]

Since Civics seems to me as one of the biggest influences on how big your empire could be (not due city limits but for maintenance modifiers) I thought if we shouldn't have civics that favour smaller empires (HUGE benefits but also like +500% Maintnance from Number of cities).

Also, what happened to the idea of having similar civics in the later game which are all great but for different playstyles?

Like:

1) Starting Civic, extremely bad.
2) Also quite bad
3) still bad but better than 1 and 2
4) Ok, very good if you go to war a lot / have a lot of units
5) Ok, very good if you focus on generating
6) Ok, very good if you focus on
7) ok, very good if you focus on

etc.

Note that these should be unlocked at the same tech / colum! Also, the Power civic could unlock the civic in the medival era and the civic in renaissance but the Educational the in renaissance and in medival.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

CivPlayer8 seems to have left the building

The main problem I am having with the civics is that

1) you can't tell what the effect of changing to the civic will be because you get an auto built building for some civics. The effect of the building is not showing nor is it stated that it will be auto built.

The other problems are:-

2) Not all links to the pedia are working. EG the civic buildings.

3) It only lists one building as able to be built or not when there seem to be more.

4) The BUG option that says not to display messages for activation and deactivation is not working.

 

[philipschall]

I like faustmouse's idea of some civics that favor small empires. It seems like the most direct way to solving the issue of small empires not being viable. Perhaps like a merchant republic type idea available around medieval, and an athenian/roman republic before that. The simple "Republic" civic doesn't do justice to the nuances of early democracy.

Perhaps the progression could go like this:
classical :early republic
Medieval :merchant republic
Industrial : federal(?)

it wouldn't be that hard to implement, really...

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't have huge opinions on civics usually but I do agree with the recent comments here. Some playstyle favoring concepts would go a long ways towards improving the civic structure indeed.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I Re-Added Patriarchy and Matriarchy civics. They may need some stat tweaking. They are under the Power Civic between Strongman and Junta.

I am open to ideas on how the balance and improve them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Matriarchy and Patriarchy now come after Junta which is a much better civic. The three probably need to be redone so that they reflect three different play options eg one production, one military and one domestic growth.