Campus Protests

[EgonSpengler]

In all the pictures I've seen it seems that the cops arrived equipped to face a small militia and not plain-clothed unarmed protestors. This seems to be the norm in the U.S. though, so I'm not surprised... but it's not a good look.

Actually, that's their "soft" approach to crowd-control. When they really want to bring the hammer down, they use armored vehicles and guns and body armor with full-face gasmasks. Look up the police response to the demonstrations and riots in Ferguson, MO ten years ago. The US Dept. of Defense used to have a program that sent surplus military equipment to law enforcement agencies. I remember a small-town chief of police saying on a radio program that the Pentagon had sent his department a crate of bayonets. I don't know if they still do that.

Police Militarization and the War on Citizens

The modern militarization of police to combat the war on drugs and terror has resulted in loss of life and liberty. It’s time to end the war on our citizens.

www.americanbar.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/militarized-police-in-ferguson-unsettles-some-pentagon-gives-cities-equipment/2014/08/14/4651f670-2401-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html

How police departments got billions of dollars of tactical military equipment - Marketplace

The program that sends surplus weapons to local law enforcement has drawn criticism in the wake of nationwide protests against police brutality.

www.marketplace.org

This photo is of police, not soldiers. This was Ferguson, 2014.

Spoiler :

 

[Birdjaguar]

I would encourage more college students to engage in riotous protests at some point in their education.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

The purpose of the protests seems to be the wider BDS (boycott, divestment, sanctions) movement and not necessarily calls to end violence in Israel. If such is the case, I doubt very much their followers will succeed in getting universities to simply quit doing business with any company which just so happens to also have holdings in Israel (this includes pretty common businesses like McDonalds and Google, etc.). That's generally how index funds work; no institution is going to put their investments in one enterprise active in one single other country, that their divesting from them will somehow make Israel change its mind about its war.
Now you could advocate to suspend arms shipments to Israel (which I'd be sympathetic to, [unless Israel wants to go fight Russia in Ukraine for me]), which probably would have more of a desired political effect.

But this, is this worth it?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

You're giving the impression that you don't value negotiating skills or even the act of negotiation. Maybe you can't even recognise when negotiating is taking place, or the benefits of past negotiating that have accrued to you.

So no wonder that you think that people are out to flip the table on you. You've given them no other option.

I just do not understand why when ever a tree falls in the forest you know a student somewhere will protest it.

That is my ultimate point here.

When ever any other demographic protests it's typically because they have a real, serious issue that is directly effecting them so badly that the requirement for change outweighs the potential negatives. With students that some times happens. But more often than not they are just out on the streets protesting that the world is unjust or the water is too wet or something. It's like protesting things for the sake of protesting them is a favored student pastime throughout the ages.

And I don't get it.

 

[schlaufuchs]

When ever any other demographic protests it's typically because they have a real, serious issue that is directly effecting them so badly that the requirement for change outweighs the potential negatives.

What makes you think this is not the case with these students?

 

[Senethro]

There is some kind of weird antipathy here.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

What makes you think this is not the case with these students?

If you go back to my post that started this discussion you will notice the fact that I am explicitly talking about the many, many situations where it in fact does not. You know, the usual generic student protest that boils down to "world is unfair, students protest" that seems to happen every time they wake up in the morning and realize that the world is in fact unfair. Like, every generation seems to have at least one or several of these pointless protests that aren't about actual issues beyond the world not being fair.

This being said, this particular case is precisely one of these. I mean, sure, the whole Palestine thing is tragic and all. But it's not an actual issue that actually effects students in america. It's not like they are being drafted to fight in that war or that the Israelis are going to suddenly stop murdering Palestinian babies and turn to bombing american universities instead.

 

[Gorbles]

If you go back to my post that started this discussion you will notice the fact that I am explicitly talking about the many, many situations where it in fact does not. You know, the usual generic student protest that boils down to "world is unfair, students protest" that seems to happen every time they wake up in the morning and realize that the world is in fact unfair. Like, every generation seems to have at least one or several of these pointless protests that aren't about actual issues beyond the world not being fair.

This being said, this particular case is precisely one of these. I mean, sure, the whole Palestine thing is tragic and all. But it's not an actual issue that actually effects students in america. It's not like they are being drafted to fight in that war or that the Israelis are going to suddenly stop murdering Palestinian babies and turn to bombing american universities instead.

Beyond the fact that you don't need a direct link to something to care about it, have you ever considered that folks might have relatives in Gaza?

I mean, you seem to be approaching this from your own personal perspective (some kind of isolationist thingy that priorities tangible cause and effect?), but have you also ever considered that this is an opinion that people don't have to share? It's not factual. It's rooted in your belief system, just as my opinions are mine.

 

[r16]

that whatever that was achieved after 1968 events is rolled back . The world WAS supposed to become better . And while there are indeed many evil men out there , whatever happens in Palestine happens in full view of the world which is supposed to have challenged such things . Considering Israel somehow needs 26 billions of US dollars the thinking then starts to revolve around that perhaps that money should not be given . So that perhaps Israel will then stop killing babies . When full Fascism arrives in the US this thread will certainly not be here for any ı told you so attempts .

 

[Kaushad]

I mean, sure, the whole Palestine thing is tragic and all. But it's not an actual issue that actually effects students in america.

It's one thing to question whether student protests effectively influence government and socierty, but you make it sound as if you're struggling to understand altruism itself.

 

[Core Imposter]

Honestly, what I don't understand is why throughout recorded history when ever there has been a protest it's usually done by students.

Students are the most sheltered of all demographics out there. They are legal adults but they often don't actually have to worry about adult things like starving to death or paying all the bills yet. Sure, they can work and become independent while they study. But nobody is forcing them. They can study while living in their parents house or live on a campus or even get tuition to pay for all of that. So they are quite insulated from the actual troubles of the world unless they deliberately choose not to be.

And at the same time they are the demographic that has the most to loose from wasting their time on frivolous political nonsense rather than using the limited time they have in school to actually learn skills they will need to succeed in life. This is doubly true in third world countries like the united states where they have to all but give their firstborn child to pay off the tuition and still end up in lifelong loans.

So why is it that at this point in life where their motivation to seek change should be at its lowest and the motivation to actually immerse your self in the education you paid for should be the highest do they do the opposite?

I went to university, and I still don't get it. I made sure to squeeze every cent worth of education out that I could. And it paid off.

In the US today kids go to uni today to drink, use drugs, have sex with as many and in as many ways as possible, play video games, denounce every value of their families, denounce every institution of their country and join any protest that lets them show their ass. All while whining and demanding that their every whim be fulfilled with alacrity. All funded by somebody else and certainly never paid back but forgiven by a particular political party in return for votes.

What were you thinking, is the question.

 

[r16]

the worthlessness of such students is how the Republican leadership survives .

 

[Comrade Ceasefire]

I would encourage more college students to engage in riotous protests at some point in their education.

An American prof I know was at the Uni of California, Berkeley in the 1960's.
During one protest most students rioted in one direction, but he decided the computer room was free and ran into it instead. Sadly, he only managed to complete 117 iterations (out of 120) of a non-linear hydrodynamics program before the riot was over and he thought it best to stop. He got the paper published, but was never satisfied that he didn't quite manage to get a 120 term approximation.
Go Nerds!

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Beyond the fact that you don't need a direct link to something to care about it,

I care about a great deal of things. I just don't do anything about them. Part of growing up is realizing that you can't beat the windmills.

have you ever considered that folks might have relatives in Gaza?

All of them? Each and every one?

I mean, you seem to be approaching this from your own personal perspective (some kind of isolationist thingy that priorities tangible cause and effect?), but have you also ever considered that this is an opinion that people don't have to share? It's not factual. It's rooted in your belief system, just as my opinions are mine.

I am approaching this from a rational perspective.

Any action comes with a cost and a benefit. This cost can be opportunity cost (other things you could have done with your time, energy and resources) but also actual practical cost in the form of what ever consequences it carries. The later being say getting expelled from school, getting imprisoned or getting into a fight with the worlds most militarized police force that has more traumatized veterans armed with assault rifles than a medium sized nations army.

And in the case of protest the benefit is either the profit achieved from who ever you are protesting against caving to your demands or the removal of what ever harm it is you are protesting from your person.

For an action to make sense and be reasonable the potential benefit of its success must outweigh the potential cost of taking it. And to me, that calculation just isn't there when it comes to most student protests in human history.

If you want to focus on this example, the students stand to neither gain any profit from the american government suddenly denouncing Israel and its genocidal war nor are they suffering from any harm as a result of that war that can be removed. So there is no benefit to be had. And the costs involve both the massive, insane opportunity costs of wasting the time they are paying for in the insanely expensive american educational system and the real piratical costs of getting into trouble.

So like, even if they 100% win and the government gives them everything they want they still just loose. And this is true for most student protests in human history. Like those times when students in Europe protested against americans being drafted for the Vietnam War. No joke, that happened. And no, I don't get understand why either.

In the US today kids go to uni today to drink, use drugs, have sex with as many and in as many ways as possible, play video games, denounce every value of their families, denounce every institution of their country and join any protest that lets them show their ass. All while whining and demanding that their every whim be fulfilled with alacrity. All funded by somebody else and certainly never paid back but forgiven by a particular political party in return for votes.

What were you thinking, is the question.

That's a whole other thing I don't understand as well. Like, I am from Europe and a Software Engineer by trade so maybe it's just a cultural thing. But when I went to university I knew bloody well that I was there in order to get the skills I would need to build a future for my self. Than again I also didn't have to take out massive loans I would newer be able to repay unless I absolutely succeed at making a carrier so maybe... no wait, I was supposed to have less of a motive.

So yea, I just don't understand student culture.

An American prof I know was at the Uni of California, Berkeley in the 1960's.
During one protest most students rioted in one direction, but he decided the computer room was free and ran into it instead. Sadly, he only managed to complete 117 iterations (out of 120) of a non-linear hydrodynamics program before the riot was over and he thought it best to stop. He got the paper published, but was never satisfied that he didn't quite manage to get a 120 term approximation.
Go Nerds!

Now this man I understand. He saw an opportunity to do something useful to him self and did it.

 

[Gorbles]

Part of growing up is realizing that you can't beat the windmills.

This is your opinion.

All of them? Each and every one?

Your argument was that you can't see how it affects students. To now pivot to "every student" is to pivot to a different, far more restrictive argument, while sidestepping the fact that I gave you a (single, concrete) explanation. There are others. Sidestepping this one doesn't suggest the worth in spending my time on them, however.

I am approaching this from a rational perspective.

You are approaching it from your perspective. We all tend to consider ourselves rational This statement:

Any action comes with a cost and a benefit.

Is predicated on what you think the cost(s) and benefit(s) are. Other people can and will have other opinions, other cost-benefit rationalisations.

All that said, I think we're going in circles. Certainly, if you think students protesting against global injustice is a sign of misplaced priorities during what amounts to paid tuition, I don't think you understand what the students are doing most of the time.

(generally, what they're doing is completing their degree, regardless of the completely out of touch Fox News-style tirade from Core Imposter)

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Your argument was that you can't see how it affects students. To now pivot to "every student" is to pivot to a different, far more restrictive argument, while sidestepping the fact that I gave you a (single, concrete) explanation. There are others. Sidestepping this one doesn't suggest the worth in spending my time on them, however.

Point is, I find it hard to believe that every single one of those students has some personal reason why the current situation physically effects them.

Is predicated on what you think the cost(s) and benefit(s) are. Other people can and will have other opinions, other cost-benefit rationalisations.

This is not a matter of opinion. The existence of something is defined by its property of being observable by an independent observer. That is how we define reality.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Point is, I find it hard to believe that every single one of those students has some personal reason why the current situation physically effects them.

You have forgotten what it is like to be young and are applying an "old man's" perspective to a group of people you no longer understand. Today's college students live a a wholly different world than you do but they retain the wonders, joys, anxieties and confusions of youth.

 

[Gorbles]

Point is, I find it hard to believe that every single one of those students has some personal reason why the current situation physically effects them.

And? That wasn't the discussion we were having.

This is not a matter of opinion. The existence of something is defined by its property of being observable by an independent observer. That is how we define reality.

Sure it is a matter of opinion. We all define reality differently. We're all exposed to it differently.

I'm a grown man and I understand these students just fine. I've tried to explain it to you. How therefore do we reconcile my observations with yours?

 

[Senethro]

Point is, I find it hard to believe that every single one of those students has some personal reason why the current situation physically effects them.


This is not a matter of opinion. The existence of something is defined by its property of being observable by an independent observer. That is how we define reality.

Its definitely a matter of opinion.

I suspect you don't know yourself why you think protests by groups of people other than students are "good" and protests by students are "bad" (which lets be real, is what you actually mean by misusing rational to say you think it would have good financial outcomes, which is in line with your values).

 

[PPQ_Purple]

You have forgotten what it is like to be young and are applying an "old man's" perspective to a group of people you no longer understand. Today's college students live a a wholly different world than you do but they retain the wonders, joys, anxieties and confusions of youth.

These are opinions I have held my whole life. Even when I was young I newer considered it sensible to randomly protest world injustice.

Its definitely a matter of opinion.

No, it is not.

Allow me to give you a very simple blunt example.
If I punch you in the face personally any neutral observer can attest to the objective fact that you have in fact been effected by me. That neutral observer can observe and even measure the physical effect on your body done by me.
If I punch someone else in the face any neutral observer can attest to the objective fact that you have in fact NOT been effected by me. And no amount of personal opinion is going to break your nose, bust your teeth or make your eye go blue.

This is not difficult. It's the scientific method in action. And reality is not a matter of opinion.

Therefore it makes sense for you to protest me punching you in the face but not me punching a random stranger in the face.

I suspect you don't know yourself why you think protests by groups of people other than students are "good" and protests by students are "bad" (which lets be real, is what you actually mean by misusing rational to say you think it would have good financial outcomes, which is in line with your values).

This is not good vs bad but sensible vs nonsensical.

For example back when France decided to gut their pension plan and the workers were out in the streets protesting that made sense.
The harm in case of failure was real and massive. The potential gain from victory was therefore equally massive. And the risk reward equation worked out to something that made sense.