Can Free Will Possibly Exist?

[Erik Mesoy]

Erik Mesoy strikes again!

 

[Elrohir]

If Christians believe in free will, they ultimately believe in a paradox. If God created the universe, with complete foreknowledge of what would result, then ultimately the universe acts according to a purpose that he designed. In that case there can be no free will.

Therefore, to the Christian, the question of fate comes down to a question of how much God controls.

I think this is a false dilemma. God exists outside of time, so He can see what we will choose, and act to prevent or change or allow it before we choose to do so. I personally don't see a contradiction between omniscience and free will.

 

[thetrooper]

Can Free Will Possibly Exist?

Buggered if I know.

But I enjoy the show with a cold beer and a bucket of popcorn as the usual suspects enter the stage.

 

[Brighteye]

If Christians believe in free will, they ultimately believe in a paradox. If God created the universe, with complete foreknowledge of what would result, then ultimately the universe acts according to a purpose that he designed. In that case there can be no free will.

Therefore, to the Christian, the question of fate comes down to a question of how much God controls.

If Christians don't believe in free will, then they believe in a paradox, since God expects us to choose morally correct actions and yet we cannot.

 

[El_Machinae]

So, the fact that chemical processes can occur seemingly at random necessarily means we have free will? That's not logically inferred.

You're very right, it's not inferred from QM. Because even if we allow for that, it still doesn't mean that "you" are more incharge of yourself than these randomly affected electrons and protons. There's no evidence that you're controlling the universe at such a fine-grained level.

An electron that you didn't decide to wobble just triggered a protein in a neuron in such a way that you'll forget this post of mine faster that you could have. This means that your future self will act differently than if that electron had wobbled a different way.

 

[Perfection]

Bill, you're referencing both QM and GR in this thread, in order to make a point. However, they're contradictory theories and haven't been properly reconciled ...

No, but pretty much every reconciliation between the two involves nondeterminism. It's fair to say that if they ever are reconciled, (and the few points where they do overlap within current theory) are going to be nondetermininistic.

 

[puglover]

I think this is a false dilemma. God exists outside of time, so He can see what we will choose, and act to prevent or change or allow it before we choose to do so. I personally don't see a contradiction between omniscience and free will.

But the fact that God created the universe means that the way he created it set it into motion according to his own foresight. That would mean that whatever we do now was part of God's plan from the very beginning.

You're very right, it's not inferred from QM. Because even if we allow for that, it still doesn't mean that "you" are more incharge of yourself than these randomly affected electrons and protons. There's no evidence that you're controlling the universe at such a fine-grained level.

An electron that you didn't decide to wobble just triggered a protein in a neuron in such a way that you'll forget this post of mine faster that you could have. This means that your future self will act differently than if that electron had wobbled a different way.

Exactly. The way the universe works seems to involve very little human interference.

 

[Rhymes]

Illusion is reality. Everything that isn't part of our personal reality isn't real imo. So definitely free will exists.

 

[Rossiya]

Where is the "I don't know" option in the poll? Because "I don't know".

 

[Brighteye]

So, the fact that chemical processes can occur seemingly at random necessarily means we have free will? That's not logically inferred.

His point was that it's not a conflict between free will and determinism, but between free will and chance.
I believe in free will. I think that there are bigger problems than Christian paradoxes though, if one doesn't believe in free will.

 

[Perfection]

Illusion is reality. Everything that isn't part of our personal reality isn't real imo. So definitely free will exists.

Huh?

So my Sodeypop isn't real?

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

There is absolutely no evidence for free will but it is possible that free will exists and it pleases us to think that we have free will.

Free will is kind of like God.

 

[puglover]

His point was that it's not a conflict between free will and determinism, but between free will and chance.

I see.

I believe in free will. I think that there are bigger problems than Christian paradoxes though, if one doesn't believe in free will.

Bigger problems? I'd like to hear your theories.

 

[Bill3000]

But the fact that God created the universe means that the way he created it set it into motion according to his own foresight. That would mean that whatever we do now was part of God's plan from the very beginning.

Doesn't really follow. Deism is a consistent claim, so you can't really say that God necessarily had a plan for the universe other than creating it. As well, if God does have a plan for the universe, it doesn't mean that he has a plan for every single thing in reality - it could just mean that he has an ultimate goal for reality, which he could bring by modifying it over time to correct it to what he wants to rather than having initial conditions.

Of course, the problem is that claiming that something outside of spacetime is ultimately saying something akin to saying that such an object doesn't exist. If god existed, he'd probably be fuddling with the parameters of reality, rather than creating the concept of the parameters himself. But that's just my empiricism coming out here.

Eh. A god that is constrained in some ways is far more logically consistent than one that isn't.

Bigger problems? I'd like to hear your theories.

Tons of problems have been discussed in the "Ask a Theologian" thread!

 

[Perfection]

Bigger problems? I'd like to hear your theories.

Problem of evil...

Also

54321!

 

[shortguy]

To a Christian like me, it becomes eternally important.

For a Christian, isn't a lack of free will a bad thing?

 

[Stolen Rutters]

It depends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

 

[El_Machinae]

Exactly. The way the universe works seems to involve very little human interference.

Most importantly, our brain seems to operate with overwhelming 'non-brain' interference. We cannot seem to say that there's anything in our brain that's not externally generated.

 

[puglover]

Doesn't really follow. Deism is a consistent claim, so you can't really say that God necessarily had a plan for the universe other than creating it. As well, if God does have a plan for the universe, it doesn't mean that he has a plan for every single thing in reality - it could just mean that he has an ultimate goal for reality, which he could bring by modifying it over time to correct it to what he wants to rather than having initial conditions.

If God sees all time as one, why would he need to "modify" anything?

Of course, the problem is that claiming that something outside of spacetime is ultimately saying something akin to saying that such an object doesn't exist. If god existed, he'd probably be fuddling with the parameters of reality, rather than creating the concept of the parameters himself. But that's just my empiricism coming out here.

What do you mean by fuddling?

Tons of problems have been discussed in the "Ask a Theologian" thread!

Yeah, I'm sorry I missed that one until it was 10 pages in.

Problem of evil...

Ah, yes. There are plenty of answers to those problems, but I suppose that's for another thread.

Also

54321!

I noticed that too. Good someone pointed it out.

For a Christian, isn't a lack of free will a bad thing?

Why?

 

[shortguy]

Why?

If you don't have free will, then how can you be responsible for your actions? If you aren't responsible for your actions, how is it just to punish you for them?