Can the means justify themselves if the ends (or other motivations) are unjust?

Ah, semantics at its finest. Not.

My point stands though, unless you've a refutation?

If I fall through a hole in the ice, and a person pulls me out; I approve of their action in rescuing me.

The fact that the person may only have pulled me out was because they intended to steal my wallet is another matter entirely.

Exactly this, and if they then don't steal my wallet I'm not particularly inclined to penalize my perception of the choice. If they do then I approve having my life saved but disapprove having my wallet taken...though in that case likely not enough to complain and get thrown back into the icy water.
 
Feel free to think anything. This is taking too sophomoric a tone.

It's true that posting one liners which don't address points of discussion has a tendency to end up that way.

Note that even in post #4 you didn't actually answer the question presented in the opening post.
 
You missed the entire caveat at the start:
One way of looking at is...

But if it makes you feel good that you think you're right or always on point, I won't interrupt your experience.
 
You missed the entire caveat at the start:


But if it makes you feel good that you think you're right or always on point, I won't interrupt your experience.

Speaking of on point, so far I've actually made one. What are you going for here? This was your full original post:

Depends. One way of looking at is, the amount of charity the mafia does cannot make it a bunch of good people.

But the majority probably prefers, say, a polite bigot than a well-meaning SJW. Humans tend to find it very hard to appreciate anything beyond the surface.

  • The topic of discussion is not whether the "mafia can be a bunch of good people". That's tangential.
  • The topic of discussion is "even if the mafia are evil people with evil intent, can an action arising from that intent which benefits people inadvertently be viewed as good".
These are different questions with different answers. The second line of the quote is off-topic.

It's not "arguing semantics" to insist that the actual topic be addressed in a discussion post about the topic.
 
You seem to be confused but are not realising it, as I've often noticed. This is literally semantics:
On balance, presumably the mafia also takes actions you disagree with. If the mafia somehow only did charity while claiming to be organized crime, I doubt you'd disagree with the charity aspect.

I don't know of anyone who uses the term 'mafia' to describe an organisation that only does charity. Do you? Basically, you were effectively asking, "Does 'the mafia' really mean that mafia that we know?", and that's textbook semantics.

I presume the bit where you "insist that the actual topic be addressed in a discussion post about the topic" is this?
OP isn't looking for character judgments, but rather whether actions can/should be judged on their own merit regardless of motivation. The answer to that question is "obviously yes", even if I trust the future actions of those with known negative motivations less.

Not sure why you think this question doesn't apply to the mafia example. The mafia, as people understand it, is formed with the creation of wealth by illegal and immoral means as one of its primary ends. To this end, it might need some form of acquiescence by society. It can operate by inspiring fear alone, but that might not be the most effective way of doing it. So, historically, it has also done acts of charity. But this action cannot be seen independently of its primary ends or motives, which includes creating wealth by illegal and immoral means. So, no, its action cannot be judged on its own merit in this case, and the answer is therefore not "obviously yes".

Could actions be judged on their own merits sometimes? Maybe; when they can clearly be divorced from the ultimate ends or motives of the actors. That's why I opened my first post with "Depends". But that wasn't what I wanted to get into then. I went on to say that people often judge what they see before them, regardless of questions of merit, which often renders the original question moot.

All this clearly flew over your head, though.
 
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Not sure why you think this doesn't apply to the mafia example. The mafia, as people understand it, is formed with the creation of wealth by illegal and immoral means as one of its primary ends.

This is an invitation to swerve off the topic, but it is impossible for me to just let it pass. I don't think this is accurately "one of its primary ends" and I also don't think that is "as most people understand it." While the mafia definitely operates lawlessly, at their formation they operated in accordance with a very strict code of morality. That code may not have been an exact match to the more widely held morality of the times, and would certainly be deemed unacceptable by the more "advanced" morality of today, but in fact it adhered to more "good and ethical" tenets than most law enforcement agencies held to at the time.

Which feeds it back into the topic at hand, because you did provide a good example. Actions are difficult to judge, because motives are difficult to discern. I "shake down" the residents of the neighborhood...and the proceeds are used to pay people who actually do provide security to the people of the neighborhood, which they otherwise would not have. I beat up a shoplifting youngster, but don't hurt him badly or give him a 'record' that will haunt him forever, and he learns from it and "turns over a new leaf"...and I have provided the service I've been paid to provide. Means? Ends?
 
While the mafia definitely operates lawlessly, at their formation they operated in accordance with a very strict code of morality. That code may not have been an exact match to the more widely held morality of the times, and would certainly be deemed unacceptable by the more "advanced" morality of today

I think these are sufficient for my statement to stand:
The mafia, as people understand it, is formed with the creation of wealth by illegal and immoral means as one of its primary ends.

Whether or not law enforcement was generally worse at the time when the mafia was formed doesn't really change that. I don't think you can claim that the mafia existed simply to protect the neighbourhood, and that it shook down residents to achieve this goal. It might be a goal of the mafia, but gaining wealth was definitely at least as important and probably more so.
 
Whether or not law enforcement was generally worse at the time when the mafia was formed doesn't really change that. I don't think you can claim that the mafia existed simply to protect the neighbourhood, and that it shook down residents to achieve this goal. It might be a goal of the mafia, but gaining wealth was definitely at least as important and probably more so.

Maybe. The fine line that needs to be located is running between "gaining wealth" and "making a living." That's a good general location, but I have no idea where it is specifically.
 
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