[GS] Canada Discussion Thread

[thecrazyscot]

I've never see Russia without faith. And faith can be used for quite a lot of things - production boosts, science boosts, purchasing units, culture boosts... I think its only limit is unit upkeep. But I'm probably forgetting something, cause I'm fairly sure I once worked out that faith was the only bucket currency in the game that could be translated into any other currency - which is one of the reasons Russia can be such a monster.

Right, because it would be dumb to play Russia without Faith. But as I said in another post, having to go Faith means Russia is less flexible in terms of strategic choices because they have to focus on it in order to excel. Faith requires much more investment to become as flexible as Gold. For example, with Gold you can purchase units, buildings, and districts outright. Faith requires an investment in Beliefs and City-States to do the same thing. Faith can certainly be powerful, but you have to focus on it to the exclusion of some other things to truly make it so.

Gold is so easy to come by, and can be used for most of the same things that Faith can. And you can trade it! Which will make it even more powerful since you can use it to buy things (like Favor...) from other civs. Instead of a Holy District, Canada can use that slot for a Commercial Hub/Harbor to get a Trade Route. And, since their tundra cities will be bigger than Russia's will have more district slots to fill.

Russia has some awesome bonuses, but Canada's are more flexible.

 

[lqwertyp]

People complaining about the Civ not being efficient/good enough to properly win with a fast domination victory clearly haven't realized that this Civ (and, on top of that, many other Civs) are NOT designed for fast domination victory. Not every Civ has to excel at fast domination victory - if you don't like it, don't play it. Solves that problem easily. This is clearly a culture/diplomatic civ and are CLEARLY not a "war" civ, so deal with it. There's a different civ for your zerg rush playstyle out there that isn't Canada, I promise you that.

Can't even CLEARLY call Canada a civ, I promise you that

 

[King William I]

For what?

Sorry, typo. You don't need faith

 

[Saltcreek]

I understand the inevitable comparison between Canada and Russia, but at the same time while both liking tundra I feel like they're otherwise trying to do different things.

I think Russia will be able to do what Canada does but better. Russia can generate more early culture and hog those great writers while also taking choral music to boost that even more.

At least the dev team fought the natural tendency towards making newer civs more and more powerful. If only they hadn't also bucked the trend about making each new civ more and more interesting.

No kidding. I was really excited to hear that Canada was making an appearance but the dev team has really dropped the ball here. Canada is a meme and nothing more.

Why are you bringing up grassland/plains tiles while talking about tundra tiles? Russia doesn't get bonuses from plains/grassland.

And farms aren't bad just because they produce one less food or one less production. They still produce housing which is ultimately limited in tundra in the absence of coast/camps.

Again, Russia uses a quick religion to support their expansion but the strength of tundra falls off if not expressively pursuing a religious victory. Canada has a relatively weaker start but scales much better to the late game.

And Canada can still take food bonuses from religion if they are so inclined, so Russia isn't necessarily better there. Canada doesn't care about religious victory.

You are ignoring the fact that you get great people points with the Lavra. Besides the faith and production bonuses from tundra Russia can also generate GP points and set up a really strong culture game. The faith can also be used for civilian purchases, military, buildings, etc. It is just way more versatile and you can do this very early.

I bring up the grassland/plains tiles because a lot of your cities will be straddling tundra and not completely surrounded by it. You are going to want to improve the non tundra tiles first over the tundra ones because a +2 farm is worse than a +3(2)/+1 farm. The housing from the farm in the tundra not very important. Even if you build a city that is completely surrounded by the tundra a Lavra will still be much more useful because of how late game Canada is. Their scaling is pretty much irrelevant when people can beat you to those civics/techs quite easily. It is all about value over time.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I don't know why everyone is complaining about stereotypes when most civs in the game are just as stereotypical. The French build Chateau's and their trophy is associated with wine. The Scottish have highlanders and golf courses etc. People around the world might not be as familiar with Canadian culture as people from North America are, so it's great that Canada has mounties and ice hockey rinks to raise awareness of Canadian identity.

I don't think they are particularly exciting but they have been well designed. Their national parks and ice hockey rinks will make them a very powerful cultural civ, and the incentives and rewards for emergencies reflects how Canada have been in real world history eg their significant contribution in WW2. I also like civs that specialise in a certain type of terrain and the only other civ that thrives in tundra terrain is Russia.

To be fair, what exactly do people expect out of Canada? The country has only been existing for 150 years, with barely any recognizable culture than differentiates itself from America. I am surprised that they can find a UU for Canada, even when it is just basically mounted cop.

 

[PhilBowles]

As Canada you can ignore Holy Sites and Faith entirely, freeing up your production and time to focus on building up...whatever else you want, like Gold.

This seems to be overstating it. National Parks are not critical to culture victory, and the one or two you may be able to obtain should be purchasable without a heavy faith focus if you aren't spending faith on anything else. Faith is more important for getting Great People, so if you want that route to a culture victory you still want faith.

 

[agonistes]

Right, because it would be dumb to play Russia without Faith. But as I said in another post, having to go Faith means Russia is less flexible in terms of strategic choices because they have to focus on it in order to excel. Faith requires much more investment to become as flexible as Gold. For example, with Gold you can purchase units, buildings, and districts outright. Faith requires an investment in Beliefs and City-States to do the same thing. Faith can certainly be powerful, but you have to focus on it to the exclusion of some other things to truly make it so.

Gold is so easy to come by, and can be used for most of the same things that Faith can. And you can trade it! Which will make it even more powerful since you can use it to buy things (like Favor...) from other civs. Instead of a Holy District, Canada can use that slot for a Commercial Hub/Harbor to get a Trade Route. And, since their tundra cities will be bigger than Russia's will have more district slots to fill.

Russia has some awesome bonuses, but Canada's are more flexible.

You know I have the utmost respect for you, @thecrazyscot , but I firmly disagree. I don't think there *is* a more flexible civ than Russia.

 

[Disgustipated]

Having an army of mounties invading a neighbour just feels weird.

Yeah like if they attacked the U.S. they would have bonuses near Glacier National Park (would be even worse near Banff). I think we need to reinforce that area ASAP.

By the time parks come around, you are swimming in faith.

I've had games without strong faith production. I sometimes have games with no religious city states left. I rarely build more than 1. Keep in mind Goddess of the Harvest pantheon is gone.

I thought that's Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rican civ confirmed.

 

[Giskler]

Keep in mind Goddess of the Harvest pantheon is gone.

Wait, what? Says who?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

To be fair, what exactly do people expect out of Canada? The country has only been existing for 150 years, with barely any recognizable culture than differentiates itself from America. I am surprised that they can find a UU for Canada, even when it is just basically mounted cop.

And this is part of the reason why I'm so disappointed with what the dev team came up with. Because none of the above is true, but it's the impression that's been left by this civ design. Contrast with a lot of the ideas on the O Canada thread for what people perhaps weren't "expecting", but were certainly hoping for.

Yeah like if they attacked the U.S. they would have bonuses near Glacier National Park (would be even worse near Banff). I think we need to reinforce that area ASAP.

Only the RCMP get a bonus though, so I think you're good. Plus we can only march 2 hexes south, so that means the attack peters out somewhere around Bute.

Also, we need to give you a 5 turns heads up.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Watched the video earlier, but had no time to comment and now it's at 21 pages.
Anyway there's nothing too spectacular that I see about the Civ in general, and a lot of the bonuses and uniques were kind of what I expected.
I do admit I like the idea of mounties creating National Parks. Now you don't have to invest in faith I guess to get one as Canada.
Ice Hockey Rink I though would be a building but the placement as an improvement makes sense and honestly reminds me of a golf course.
The part I don't necessarily care for is Laurier's bonus which seems to be a Manifest Destiny for Tundra. At least make it for woods and plains/plains hills too.
I kind of was hoping for something along with early exploration/fur trade abilities but I guess the trading part of Canadian history went to the Cree.

Also is that a future city architecture in that first screenshot that shows off the ice hockey rink?

 

[Giskler]

Also is that a future city architecture in that first screenshot that shows off the ice hockey rink?

Yes.

 

[thecrazyscot]

This seems to be overstating it. National Parks are not critical to culture victory, and the one or two you may be able to obtain should be purchasable without a heavy faith focus if you aren't spending faith on anything else. Faith is more important for getting Great People, so if you want that route to a culture victory you still want faith.

That's kind of my point. Canada has more flexibility in which way to go, so if you want to found The Canadian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, knock yourself out. If you want to swim in an ocean of gold, go for it. If you want to have all the museums, good for you. Russia is funneled towards Faith, and if they really want to use GP then they have to devote a second district slot towards it.

Russia has some very narrow specialties, Canada has lots more flexibility.

 

[Saltcreek]

My comparison is quite valid. Regardless of whether or are playing any civ to its strength there is an opportunity cost to doing so. Having the Lavra as their UD limits Russia's strategic options as it would be a waste of an ability not to pursue it. This is why UI > UD > UB. The less of an opportunity cost associated with a unique, the more flexible it is.

You are right that Russia gets free tiles upon settling, but that's not actually as good as it could be. For one, with a minimum settle distance there's usually little fear of losing important tiles except for in border cities. For another, you can't choose which tiles you get, so you'll end up with a bunch of useless tiles which you can't work anyways because you have little to no food to grow your city. I'm not saying Canada's counterpart is strictly better, because I don't think it is, but the ability to cheaply purchase the tiles you actually want is pretty darn good.

I get that some people would think that the Lavra would be a limiting factor but it is a strength that Russia can play to and do very well with. Right now, based off what we know, Canada has no strength it can play to (diplo may be something but we shall see). Tundra is underwhelming, UU is late, and the UI is most likely mid/late. I am just not seeing anything that jumps out that is strong or that can be exploited to gain an advantage.

The free tiles on settle is a bit funny and you are right - it could be good or bad. I just feel if there was an actual bonus to improving tundra tiles then the cheaper purchase price would be more beneficial.

 

[thecrazyscot]

You know I have the utmost respect for you, @thecrazyscot , but I firmly disagree. I don't think there *is* a more flexible civ than Russia.

I'd be bored out of my mind if everyone agreed with me!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yes.

So Future and Polynesian are the two city sets. I guess Mali is going to look like the Kongo and Zulu.

 

[lqwertyp]

This must be the biggest abomination for a civ yet. WTH, Canada?! Unbelievable that proper civs like Babylon or Maya have to be cut for people that build hockey rinks...

Hope this "civ" can be modded out asap.

Great job Firaxis!

 

[Disgustipated]

I can't be the only one who's unhappy they went with 'O Canada' for the theme? It's not a folk song at all.

I would have taken Alouette over this.

When I saw AL I thought you were going to say Alanis Morissette. Not sure you would want her for your theme.

And all these comparisons of Russia and Canada. I guess people are upset Canada can't compete with Russia, but guess what, Russia in real life is a power house compared to Canada. and yes I know real life doesn't affect the design of civs (look at the ridiculous power of Australia LOL), but people would complain if they designed Canada to be more powerful than Russia. I see Canada as a niche civ, and that's okay. The Maori are similar. Both will only do well on certain maps.

 

[darkace77450]

That's kind of my point. Canada has more flexibility in which way to go, so if you want to found The Canadian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, knock yourself out. If you want to swim in an ocean of gold, go for it. If you want to have all the museums, good for you. Russia is funneled towards Faith, and if they really want to use GP then they have to devote a second district slot towards it.

They have an edge on Faith, which can lend itself to pursuit of a Religious Victory.
They have an early edge on Great Writers, Artists, and Musicians, which can lend itself to pursuit of a Cultural Victory.
They can shoot for Hildegard, Jesuit Education, and the Amundsen-Scott Research Station in pursuit of a Science Victory.
Or they can combine the Grand Master's Chapel and Cossacks in pursuit of a Domination Victory.

Given the flexibility of Faith, building a Holy Site isn't terribly dissimilar to building a Commercial Hub. I don't think Russia is nearly as pigeonholed as you're making them out to be.

 

[PhilBowles]

That's kind of my point. Canada has more flexibility in which way to go, so if you want to found The Canadian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, knock yourself out. If you want to swim in an ocean of gold, go for it. If you want to have all the museums, good for you. Russia is funneled towards Faith, and if they really want to use GP then they have to devote a second district slot towards it.

Russia has some very narrow specialties, Canada has lots more flexibility.

I don't know that you can really call a lack 'flexibility'. Russia loses the value of its uniques if it doesn't use them, but it has good bonuses if it does. Canada just doesn't do much of anything - its food/farm bonus amounts to running to catch up with everyone who doesn't start in tundra, and their UI is so late that it's not clear that the culture boost it provides is nearly as good as it looks. Then, if they aren't going for a culture victory, their UU has little value as all of its bonuses are tied to national parks.