Capital of Europe

[Dame Edna]

I would have voted for the island of St Helena - the dictator of Europe spent his last days there = tourism. And it is a convenient location if the Americans want to invade the EU.

 

[Kyriakos]

The capital could go to the city of monasteries

 

[TheLastOne36]

Do you believe so? What we can do if we don't share your feelings?
Your problem is that you simply don't want to see anything good in my country - it's clearly visible in your posts in every thread related to Russia. Why do you expect we will do anything for people who hate us?

because alot of the things that happen to be "good" for russia tend to be "bad" for other countries. (seen in recent history)

People in Estonia do their own "efforts". What about rights of russian minority in Estonia? Again, why we must do anything for people who show their disrespect to things, saint for every russian? (I mean monument incident)

Some russians were "moved" there to decrease the native population. (for example Northern Cyprus and all the turks that turkey put there)

About provocations - AFAIK we don't do anything special which NATO forces don't do to us. It is matter of how media represents this.
Separatists in Georgia - Yes, Russia as well as USA has interests in this region, mainly because of oil pipe. So, this is kinda imperialistic politics, but not more than democratic USA's imperialism. And you must admit, there was civil war there, and Russia's intervention stopped genocide (seemed to be from both sides). And our peacekeepers are preventing war there so far.

Here i agree with you.

 

[red_elk]

There is such a thing in law as a date when a crime becomes prescribed after a certain time, 400 years might be considered well beyond the that time in international questions even more so when considering that states adhere to less restricting laws than individual people. Especialy because since those days, before the invention of humanism and many other philosophies, the rules of conduct have changed and the value of a single human life has rizen, at least in industrializen countries.

So I believe that Poland hasn't apologised and shouldn't. Just as there is no reason for Russia to apologise for parttaking in the partitions of Poland at the end of the 18th century, even dough that was done in more civilised times and in a way verging on illegality and being situated in the realms of immorality even in those days.

It is a childish notion.

The 20th century is a different matter all together.

Ok, agree. You started to go through history, and I just reminded that there were various periods in our history. Just one point - my second link also related to 20th century.

But unfortunately Putin is a KGB schooled Imperialist and the Russian people ready to exchange their freedoms for watered down glory, so here we are.

Russians had more freedom before Putin. Why don't you read Arkadij Babtienko's "The Colors OF War", and learn something how your country mistreats its people? You'll probably have to go to Lithuania to get it though, I believe it is printed in Russian there, it is forbidden in Russia.

A fascinating Eye witness report from the Chechen wars.

Come on, do you think we still live in the USSR?
I know this author, I've read his books about Chechnya, found them on lib.ru. Very interesting. I searched in google, it seems that "Colors of war" is name of Swedish translation, in Russian there are other names. And I'm sure his paper books are not forbidden, at least I can find them in internet shops:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1615201/?type=308#308
Believe me, I lived here long enough and know about my country more than you. I know about all these things you want me to understand from the book. Despite of this, I think there is no big problems with freedom in Russia. The main thing is we never go back to totalitarianism, I'm sure.

As for "glory", well, I think it would be good to restore everything good that we have in USSR. You should not see threat here, for example if Russia will have modern effective army, it will be more safe to other world .

 

[philippe]

As for "glory", well, I think it would be good to restore everything good that we have in USSR. You should not see threat here, for example if Russia will have modern effective army, it will be more safe to other world .

:yes especially in the warzones of chechnia

 

[red_elk]

Some russians were "moved" there to decrease the native population. (for example Northern Cyprus and all the turks that turkey put there)

There was no such policy to decrease native population. Even if it was, it would not excuse violation of their rights. Some russians are native people there, because their ancestors lived there for hundreds years, some was moved in 20th century and worked for their economics. It reminded me the joke "Russian barbarians were rushing into cities of Uzbekistan and leaving after them new schools, hospitals and libraries"

 

[Gelion]

Here's another one. I devote it to you-know-who.

An Estonian catches a goldfish. "I can make 3 wishes come true" - said the goldfish. The guy grabs her by the tail and beats her against the ground: "Dont-speak-to-me-in-rus-sian!"

 

[carmen510]

Geneva, Vienna, or Stockholm.

 

[obliterate]

I'd have to say Geneva. Most neutral country in Europe and a central location.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Brussels, one of the EU's political capitals. Or Geneva.

 

[LightFang]

The capital of Europe is Washington, D.C.

 

[Pokurcz]

Ok, agree. You started to go through history, and I just reminded that there were various periods in our history. Just one point - my second link also related to 20th century.

In fact it was RedRalphWiggum who started bringing up ancient Irish history (800years) claiming that eastern European countries hadn't suffered anything of the kind at the hands of Russians, I merely corrected his ignorance.

About that 20th century incident you mentioned, I do not know if Poland has apologised, but some sort of apology might be in order, but as I answered to that link, the Katyn massacre and in deed the whole unfolding of Russian conduct around its fulfilment of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with its intentional malice and brutality shines like a Supernova compared to the solar pretuberations of the Polish miscunduct.
Sending a horsehockyload of Poles to Siberia where a lot of them perished in a manner not dissimilar and most probably in greater numbers and under worse conditions than Russians did after the Russo-Polish war in the beginning of the 1920ties, has not been specificaly apologised for either, if I am not mistaken, But it would once again be a silly notion to demand apologies for each and every single incident.

Might I ask you, where there many more similar or even more scandalous misconducts perpetrated by Poles against Russians during the 20th century?

Even dough there might have been a few more, rest assured that Russian crimes against Poles where more numerous and more deplorable.

Come on, do you think we still live in the USSR?
I know this author, I've read his books about Chechnya, found them on lib.ru. Very interesting. I searched in google, it seems that "Colors of war" is name of Swedish translation, in Russian there are other names. And I'm sure his paper books are not forbidden, at least I can find them in internet shops:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1615201/?type=308#308
Believe me, I lived here long enough and know about my country more than you. I know about all these things you want me to understand from the book. Despite of this, I think there is no big problems with freedom in Russia. The main thing is we never go back to totalitarianism, I'm sure.

As for "glory", well, I think it would be good to restore everything good that we have in USSR. You should not see threat here, for example if Russia will have modern effective army, it will be more safe to other world .

Well I do not realy understand how you could make any of my statements imply that Russians still live in the USSR, other than if the love of your fatherland makes you overtly sensetive to any criticism against it.

Unfortunately the freedoms of Russians have taken a dive for the worse during Putins Reigime, here is a link to a article in the main Swedish newspaper: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?a=717803

I'll describe the essence of what it says:

Litvienkos widow has written a book with Alex Goldfarb about his death, it is printed in swedish but no publisher in Russia has dared to touch it, though it will be published in russian but in the Baltics.

Books are seldom outright forbidden in Russia, but it is quite usual to get a visit from the authoritys, like the fire inspector or the tax people if you have anything to do with books that the government dislikes.

For example the Russian Penclub was forced to abandon its premises as it turned out to suddenly have a muly milion debt to the taxdepartment, because it promoted some disencuraged literature.

”No body can say that Putin forbids literature. No publisher is put in jail, but their economy is destroyed. It is a very subtle form of censorship, says Björn Linell.” (head of Swedish Pen)

Distribution of literature outside the large cities is bad. To reach a large Public you have to anounce it in mainstream media, but all TV chanells are controled by the state.

When books critical of the reigime are published they are ignored by the media.
Publishers have more freedom then Newspapers or TV, but because criticising literature has no room in media there is no demand for it.

Even stuff that can not be published in paper can be published on the internet, but only 20% of the Russian general public has acces to the internet and most of them live in large cities.

”In a big survey in Russia freedom of speach wound up as number seventeen of things important in life.

That is remarcable in a country where at least 71 jurnalists have been killed since 1992. But because of the strict control of media the cries of the oposition are in vain.”(end of article)



Just because you asociate democracy with the turmoil of the nineties does not mean that increasing authocracy is better, only because it has also brought a sense of stability. In stead of actually building a better country you have let your leader dissasemble what you achieved before. You are walking the broad road to the edge of the abyss , from wich you so laborously have climbed out of before. Blinded by promises that everything will be better as long as you let others decide what is right and wrong and what is true and what is false.

Your destiny is slipping out of your hands.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

It should be Vienna, but Berlin is my #2.

 

[red_elk]

In fact it was RedRalphWiggum who started bringing up ancient Irish history (800years) claiming that eastern European countries hadn't suffered anything of the kind at the hands of Russians, I merely corrected his ignorance.

About that 20th century incident you mentioned, I do not know if Poland has apologised, but some sort of apology might be in order, but as I answered to that link, the Katyn massacre and in deed the whole unfolding of Russian conduct around its fulfilment of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with its intentional malice and brutality shines like a Supernova compared to the solar pretuberations of the Polish miscunduct.
Sending a horsehockyload of Poles to Siberia where a lot of them perished in a manner not dissimilar and most probably in greater numbers and under worse conditions than Russians did after the Russo-Polish war in the beginning of the 1920ties, has not been specificaly apologised for either, if I am not mistaken, But it would once again be a silly notion to demand apologies for each and every single incident.

My point was that if somebody insists on apologies, he should know that both sides have things to apologize. I think that people should not be responcible for past actions of their government. Modern Russian people have nothing to do with actions of Stalin's government just as Poles with Pilsudski government. Exception is if people are supporting certain actions.

Might I ask you, where there many more similar or even more scandalous misconducts perpetrated by Poles against Russians during the 20th century?
Even dough there might have been a few more, rest assured that Russian crimes against Poles where more numerous and more deplorable.

The only facts I can be confident of is that there were many thousands of victims from both sides. We can start counting these thousands, but I doubt we'll be able to find objective sources. So, the answer is - I don't know. And even if you convince me, that russian crimes were a lot worse it won't change my opinion on apologies, which I wrote above.

Well I do not realy understand how you could make any of my statements imply that Russians still live in the USSR, other than if the love of your fatherland makes you overtly sensetive to any criticism against it.

You mentioned forbidden books and I recall "Archipelag gulag", which was really forbidden in the USSR (and only before 1985, I suppose). Now I don't think there is a danger to be arrested for any books you have.

Unfortunately the freedoms of Russians have taken a dive for the worse during Putins Reigime, here is a link to a article in the main Swedish newspaper: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?a=717803

I'll describe the essence of what it says:

Litvienkos widow has written a book with Alex Goldfarb about his death, it is printed in swedish but no publisher in Russia has dared to touch it, though it will be published in russian but in the Baltics.

Books are seldom outright forbidden in Russia, but it is quite usual to get a visit from the authoritys, like the fire inspector or the tax people if you have anything to do with books that the government dislikes.

For example the Russian Penclub was forced to abandon its premises as it turned out to suddenly have a muly milion debt to the taxdepartment, because it promoted some disencuraged literature.

”No body can say that Putin forbids literature. No publisher is put in jail, but their economy is destroyed. It is a very subtle form of censorship, says Björn Linell.” (head of Swedish Pen)

Distribution of literature outside the large cities is bad. To reach a large Public you have to anounce it in mainstream media, but all TV chanells are controled by the state.

When books critical of the reigime are published they are ignored by the media.
Publishers have more freedom then Newspapers or TV, but because criticising literature has no room in media there is no demand for it.

Even stuff that can not be published in paper can be published on the internet, but only 20% of the Russian general public has acces to the internet and most of them live in large cities.

”In a big survey in Russia freedom of speach wound up as number seventeen of things important in life.

That is remarcable in a country where at least 71 jurnalists have been killed since 1992. But because of the strict control of media the cries of the oposition are in vain.”(end of article)

This article describes recent events. Was your attitude to Russia better before Putin or you had other reasons to dislike us? I mean, everybody in the world can read such articles, and criticize, but only eastern europeans react as if russians started killing millions of people and must be isolated. From all the spectre of opinions about Russia in press, you readily believe to the worst one.

Distribution of literature outside the large cities is bad. To reach a large Public you have to anounce it in mainstream media, but all TV chanells are controled by the state.

This is at least exaggeration. Example of independant (I would say even opposition) tv channel is Ren-TV. Their site claims their audience count 120 millions of people. I cannot say about other statements in article, may be there are other exaggerations. But you believe, everything is true, right?

Just because you asociate democracy with the turmoil of the nineties does not mean that increasing authocracy is better, only because it has also brought a sense of stability. In stead of actually building a better country you have let your leader dissasemble what you achieved before. You are walking the broad road to the edge of the abyss , from wich you so laborously have climbed out of before. Blinded by promises that everything will be better as long as you let others decide what is right and wrong and what is true and what is false.
Your destiny is slipping out of your hands.

We do have problems. And proper criticism can help us to deal with them. But it seems that attitude of eastern europeans to us does not really related to our freedom, it's just excuse. What we're hearing from them is not criticism - I have only russian words to name it. Expressions like "go f* yourself" and the similar can only cause the same reaction.

 

[Angst]

England's problem with the EU is that they still consider them selves a great power, which they were about 50-100 years, and they still haven't gotten over the Victorian era, where they ruled the world. Probably, British/English culture still states it is the greatest in the world.

It's the same with France as a 'winner' of WW2 - France got steamrolled by Germany, many historians actually think Poland did a better job, and they still got a part of Germany after the war. Why? Because they had once been a great power. At this current era, both England and France are somehow powerful, but not at all as strong as they think. Germany will probably pass them enourmously in a few years if they didn't already, and all European countries are naught but nuts next to Russia. Japan should have better economy than England today, as well as France (Read it somewhere)

So in short, when previously being a great power, you become very nationalistic. I think the UK hasn't really gotten over their status as the world's mightiest nation, and they don't like to be a part of a Union as EU.

So no London or Paris as European capital. They have declined.

I voted Berlin for representation. Probably Vienna wouldn't be a bad choice though, but Berlin it should be. Germany is the strongest economy in Europe - or at least will be in a few years.

 

[Traitorfish]

England's problem with the EU is that they still consider them selves a great power, which they were about 50-100 years, and they still haven't gotten over the Victorian era, where they ruled the world.

Not really- in fact, modern British culture is almost defined by, as Bill Bailey put it, a "post-imperial malaise". The only ones who believe in the empire anymore are Tories, fascists and other rightist types. Everyone else has sort of resigned themselves to the fact we're now a second-rate little brother to a much bigger Union across the Atlantic. True, the English retain a certain attitude of superiority, but this is basically a sort of denial, usually filling the gaps between the regular bouts of self-loathing.
British reluctance to integrate further into Europe is ultimately because of a sort of island isolation- we've never really felt like part of Europe. Physical detachment has resulted in a greater than level of cultural and political detachment. The British are, by and large, fairly introspective, viewing their country as a more or less separate continent.

 

[Winner]

Agree!

What is Belgium?

A FARCE!

Most European countries are farce - sets of honorable traditions we keep around in order to feel different.

 

[Winner]

Pokurcz already said the most important thing:

A No means No, if a country whants to be left alone it means it, it does not mean that it is being counter meddled with in some conspiracy led by the CIA or UFO's, it actualy means "leave us alone".

About the rest...

Do you believe so? What we can do if we don't share your feelings?
Your problem is that you simply don't want to see anything good in my country - it's clearly visible in your posts in every thread related to Russia. Why do you expect we will do anything for people who hate us?

And how, pray tell, have you come to this conclusion? You, Gelion and the other Russians on this forum seem to be unable to differentiate between criticism and hatred. There is a difference between saying "I don't really like the shirt you're wearing" and "You look like an idiot because you are an idiot".

So, for the last time: I do not hate Russia. I do not hate Russians. It's the truth, no matter if you choose not to believe it because thinking that he who criticizes also hates is easier than to admit he might be right.

People in Estonia do their own "efforts". What about rights of russian minority in Estonia? Again, why we must do anything for people who show their disrespect to things, saint for every russian? (I mean monument incident)

Why should the world revolve around your feelings of national greatness? Why are you so unwilling to accept that your rule over these countries was evil, wrong, bad, disasterful? Is that so hard to admit that, say that, apologize for that and show the will to normalize the relations?

Why do you look for banal things to divert the attention elsewhere? You've done a lot of bad things in Estonia, so to relieve your conscience, you have to prove to yourself that Estonians (or Poles, or Czechs, or whoever else you occupied) are bad too and that they don't deserve any sincere apology?

About provocations - AFAIK we don't do anything special which NATO forces don't do to us. It is matter of how media represents this.

You have to admit that you're making it very easy for the media to present you in a negative way. Your politicans are making sabre-rattling comments, you often resort to intimidation instead of negotiation etc.

Separatists in Georgia - Yes, Russia as well as USA has interests in this region, mainly because of oil pipe. So, this is kinda imperialistic politics, but not more than democratic USA's imperialism. And you must admit, there was civil war there, and Russia's intervention stopped genocide (seemed to be from both sides). And our peacekeepers are preventing war there so far.

See? You're doing it again. Instead of admitting a wrongdoing, you say "but the US are doing this too!". Besides the fact that they don't really support any separatists in Georgia, especially not those who have their hands covered in Georgian blood, Russian imperialism serves no purpose. Georgia tried to get away from the Russian sphere of interests, so you punished it for it. Feels like the old days, 1956, 1968...

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I know it seems like Europeans like appealing to tradition and culture, but what's wrong with just making a new capital?

Just level a part of the Alps and build a super citadel that brings the Hall of Justice to shame.

 

[Winner]

I know it seems like Europeans like appealing to tradition and culture, but what's wrong with just making a new capital?

Just level a part of the Alps and build a super citadel that brings the Hall of Justice to shame.

We don't have a place for a new city, all good spots are in use already.