Capital of Europe

[Gelion]

Yeah, we should ask for it back

 

[Pokurcz]

My point was that if somebody insists on apologies, he should know that both sides have things to apologize. I think that people should not be responcible for past actions of their government. Modern Russian people have nothing to do with actions of Stalin's government just as Poles with Pilsudski government. Exception is if people are supporting certain actions.

Very true. The problem lies not in what has been done, it lies in the behaviour and actual actions taken by the Present Russian government that indicate support for former actions and behaviour.

Even though Russia has not returned to Soviet era policies and politics, its government is using much of the same mannerisms and language as before. Putin belittles former russian crimes and has himself engrandured in his new history books that are not written by real historians but by party oficials.

This leads people from countries with experience of former Russian conduct to become wary and suspicious, whilst westerners without the same experience do not notice it as much.

The questions you as a Russian should ask yourself and Your government is what is this revival of former glory actuay doing for the improvement of your situation and the situation of other Russian citizens.

The only facts I can be confident of is that there were many thousands of victims from both sides. We can start counting these thousands, but I doubt we'll be able to find objective sources. So, the answer is - I don't know. And even if you convince me, that russian crimes were a lot worse it won't change my opinion on apologies, which I wrote above.

All countries have comitted crimes against their neighbours in one way or the other, more or less serious ones.

But you can rest assured that Russian crimes against its neighbours are far greater than the crimes commited by those neighbours against Russia. Perhaps only Germany and Japan rival the level of bestiality of Russian crimes.

It is not because Russians Germans And japanese people are more bloodthirsty or insane that other people. It is because all three found themselves vulnerable to infectious new ideologies in tandem with great industrial developmentm at the mercy of carismatic leaders and at a time when the old world was in upheaval.

But still that does not excuse the crimes.

You mentioned forbidden books and I recall "Archipelag gulag", which was really forbidden in the USSR (and only before 1985, I suppose). Now I don't think there is a danger to be arrested for any books you have.

But you can have your economy destroyed along with your families future.

This article describes recent events. Was your attitude to Russia better before Putin or you had other reasons to dislike us? I mean, everybody in the world can read such articles, and criticize, but only eastern europeans react as if russians started killing millions of people and must be isolated. From all the spectre of opinions about Russia in press, you readily believe to the worst one.

The thing is that the majority of reports and views from Russia today are negative, except for that the economy is improving because of oil revenues and foreign capital. Individual rights are decreasing.

Before Putin I was a teenager dosent count.

This is at least exaggeration. Example of independant (I would say even opposition) tv channel is Ren-TV. Their site claims their audience count 120 millions of people. I cannot say about other statements in article, may be there are other exaggerations. But you believe, everything is true, right?

What i did not translate from the article was the title and some parts in it. The Title Is "Sewlf censorship silences Russian writers" and the article ecplains how peolpe in the media or publishing, censor themselves as a precaution, being afraid of sanctions. So I guess Ren-TV sticks with the program out of self preservation. Unlike NTV wich was truly indipendent of the government because of its wealthy owner before forced to shut down.

We do have problems. And proper criticism can help us to deal with them. But it seems that attitude of eastern europeans to us does not really related to our freedom, it's just excuse. What we're hearing from them is not criticism - I have only russian words to name it. Expressions like "go f* yourself" and the similar can only cause the same reaction.

I did not write "go F yourself", I wrote, as I explained, that The Soviet union and Putin can f them self. There is a difference you know.


The obvious answer to what I asked you to ask yourself is that it does nothing for regular Russians but divert their atention from the actual everyday struggle to have a good life.

In stead the selected top officials reap the benefits, the difference from the Jeltsin era is that instead of the olgiarchs cashing in on everybody elses expence now it is Putin and his old friends from the KGB. Most other people get the ilusion of dignity by the seming rize of dignity of the state, while they themselves have their dignity and human value stripped away.

It is like the Chechen hostage taking in that theatre some years ago. The Chechens desperate to be aknowledged as a people with rights and dignity tried with desperate means to get atention for their cause. Whilst the common Russian, represented by those unfortunate people in the theater, watching the spectacle on the scene not realy knowing what was going on got gassed with a very strong sleeping agent along with the Chechens as if their lives counted for nothing in the eyes of the generals who ordered the "rescue" atempt. Russians died at the hands of their own government because they have no human value in the eyes of their rulers. Because the people in charge where the same people lwho where in charge in the soviet era.

The checens got killed. What litle dignity the hostages had after their "rescue" was taken by the world press when their unconcious bodies where photographed laying slumped in the seats of busses outside the theatre.

Soviet era values are still stearing the hands of the people in power.

 

[Kal'thzar]

in my opinion its going to stay in the low countries, its roughly in the middle of the three major economic powers of the EU, so unless that changes in the beginning of the EU's centralisation its going to stay there.

 

[REDY]

Russians with who are met were friendly to time when it comes to politics. They are offended personally when somebody is criticising their leader Putin or what Soviets were done. (Same experience I had with Croats). Its sad that they have Putin but they chose it.

 

[TheLastOne36]

in my opinion its going to stay in the low countries, its roughly in the middle of the three major economic powers of the EU, so unless that changes in the beginning of the EU's centralisation its going to stay there.

Maybe somewhere in the Alpine states (switzerland/Luxembourg/Austria) would be better because you have Italy and a rising economic power (in europe atleast) Poland around as well, at the expense of england....

 

[Disenfrancised]

Here is a few citations from the book I read recently:
"Collapse of an Empire: Lessons for Modern Russia". Yegor Gaidar. Moscow, "Russian political encyclopedia", 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Empire-Lessons-Modern-Russia/dp/0815731140

Traditional response of the Soviet regime to disorders in the vassal states of the Eastern Europe was not only using force, but also increasing volume of economical aid. In the 1950-s, Soviet Union supported Eastern European socialistic countries with grain delivery. Under influence of increasing agricultural crisis, deliveries were reduced, but continued until the beginning of 1960-s. (page 169)

I'm confused, the industrial parts of europe have never been sufficent in food and have required imports. Indeed before WWI it got imported from the Ukraine in exchange for money and goods. In a command economy the industrial parts would only get food at state direction, so what exactly is the problem with grain delivery?

Also nicely understated 'agricultural crisis' there, eh?

 

[Kal'thzar]

Maybe somewhere in the Alpine states (switzerland/Luxembourg/Austria) would be better because you have Italy and a rising economic power (in europe atleast) Poland around as well, at the expense of england....

Yes I did think about that, as I said it depends on the economic state of the constituent states when it centralises. As is the southern European states are weaker economically than the Northen ones.

 

[Bast]

Berlin? Das vierte Reich?

 

[Norseone]

its closer to the center of Europe

 

[Portugal]

Lisbon

10 character limit sucks

Seconded.

 

[Winner]

Here is a few citations from the book I read recently:
"Collapse of an Empire: Lessons for Modern Russia". Yegor Gaidar. Moscow, "Russian political encyclopedia", 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Empire-Lessons-Modern-Russia/dp/0815731140

Traditional response of the Soviet regime to disorders in the vassal states of the Eastern Europe was not only using force, but also increasing volume of economical aid. In the 1950-s, Soviet Union supported Eastern European socialistic countries with grain delivery. Under influence of increasing agricultural crisis, deliveries were reduced, but continued until the beginning of 1960-s. (page 169)

1-2 of march, 1982, Poland delegation visited Moscow. In the meeting with Soviet leadership, Yaruzelsky told about hard situation in Poland economics ... Poland comrades thanks Soviet Union for the urgent economical aid which was counted in 1980-1981 as approximately 4 billions roubles, (including 3 billions dollars in foreign currency). The agreement was signed about granting to Poland credit of 2.7 billions of roubles on 1982-1983 years. Poland delegation has put the question about granting additional wide-ranging economical aid. (page 188)

Translation of citations from Russian is mine, so I apologize for my English

Gestures, nothing more. The fact is that East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and even Poland were more developed than the USSR. The Council for Mutual Economic Assistance was therefore used as a tool for getting quality goods from the Soviet satellites to Russia in exchange for useless crap and weapons. It was a system of imperial exploitation of the economically more developed countries, which allowed the USSR to remain a superpower for so long.

Czechoslovakia was, together with DDR, the most exploited country in the Eastern Bloc. The only aid I can think of was the grain the USSR sent us after it had forced us not to participate in the Marshall plan - thank you very much BTW, the grain was sent at the time Soviet citizens were starving.

Further aid consisted of a million brotherly Soviet soldiers being sent here to suppress counter-revolutionary elements threatening to destroy socialism in Czechoslovakia. 100,000 of these remained to defend us from Western aggression. USSR deployed nuclear weapons on our territory, thousands of armored vehicles and thousands of soldiers, guess who had to feed them.

Yes, we were evil, thank you, mighty Russians, for all the good you've done to us. We really don't have any reason at all not to like you. I now se how ignorant and ungrateful I've been

 

[Steph]

The Council for Mutual Economic Assistance was therefore used as a tool for getting quality goods from the Soviet satellites to Russia in exchange for useless crap and weapons. It was a system of imperial exploitation of the economically more developed countries, which allowed the USSR to remain a superpower for so long.

Polish joke: "What can you hear coming and coming but can never see?"
"Russian help!"

 

[Winner]

Polish joke: "What can you hear coming and coming but can never see?"
"Russian help!"

My last OT post:

3 ministers of defense meet to talk about their country's armored vehicles production:

German minister says: "We can make a tank for only 2000 Deutsche Marks!"
French minister says: "We can make a tank for only 2000 Francs!"
Czechoslovak says: "Bah, all we need is to say 2000 words and we have our country full of tanks!"

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

To the original question, if a supra-state ever emerged, the Capitol would remain Brussels. Why do you think most of the institutions are there in the first place? Nationalism didn't disappear with the EU and it won't disappear with a European state. So they put the pseudo-capitol in a pseudo-country. That way you don't offend anyone or piss them off. Its kind of like the UN Secretary General, they give the role to a prominent figure in an insignificant country because they don't want any of the big boys having more influence than they already have.

 

[Winner]

If Belgium breaks up, I'll strongly advocate Brussels becoming some sort of "District of Europe", a semi-independent city-state hosting European Union institutions.

 

[red_elk]

I'm confused, the industrial parts of europe have never been sufficent in food and have required imports. Indeed before WWI it got imported from the Ukraine in exchange for money and goods. In a command economy the industrial parts would only get food at state direction, so what exactly is the problem with grain delivery?

Also nicely understated 'agricultural crisis' there, eh?

Gestures, nothing more. The fact is that East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and even Poland were more developed than the USSR. The Council for Mutual Economic Assistance was therefore used as a tool for getting quality goods from the Soviet satellites to Russia in exchange for useless crap and weapons. It was a system of imperial exploitation of the economically more developed countries, which allowed the USSR to remain a superpower for so long.

Czechoslovakia was, together with DDR, the most exploited country in the Eastern Bloc. The only aid I can think of was the grain the USSR sent us after it had forced us not to participate in the Marshall plan - thank you very much BTW, the grain was sent at the time Soviet citizens were starving.

Further aid consisted of a million brotherly Soviet soldiers being sent here to suppress counter-revolutionary elements threatening to destroy socialism in Czechoslovakia. 100,000 of these remained to defend us from Western aggression. USSR deployed nuclear weapons on our territory, thousands of armored vehicles and thousands of soldiers, guess who had to feed them.

Yes, we were evil, thank you, mighty Russians, for all the good you've done to us. We really don't have any reason at all not to like you. I now se how ignorant and ungrateful I've been

My message was just responce to statement that Soviet Union did not support Eastern European countries economically. This is not true.

 

[Winner]

My message was just responce to statement that Soviet Union did not support Eastern European countries economically. This is not true.

If you want to discuss that any further, please do so in my new thread, the link is in my signature.

 

[Thorbal]

Berlin has 29 votes ? I did not expect that.

To beat someone to it: NOBODY expects the Spanish inquisition

 

[Hadesspirit]

Berlin has 29 votes ? I did not expect that.

To beat someone to it: NOBODY expects the Spanish inquisition

To be worlds third biggest economy,(first in Europe)
I think they earned them.
But honestly,i wish London took the first place..

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Berlin has 29 votes ? I did not expect that.

If you look at it's history, it's perfect.