Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[Crezth]

Democratic peace theory is also kind of garbage in general.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Perhaps, but Iggy surely isn't, and when playing as our liberal Gundrunsson I'm sure he could of tinkered his liberal program for its recipients no .

-

As to the root origins of the demise of PADA, I think its not so much a divergence of foreign policy between the main members, but that PADA itself became attached to a particular political agenda (yours) which became problematic in a multi-agent institution. Thus when Vinland, who became the face of PADA in a way, vacillated on various issues (with regards to moralism, with regards to Traditional Proletarism and so forth) rather than being decisive in applying PADA's charter (indeed willingly choosing to interpret the charter to justify its vacillation) the deathknell rang.

Oh and before you say refraining from invading Jamaica was not indecisive, it was precisely vacilation because you chose to interpret events and PADA so that there was no point at which "diplomacy" could be considered failed. Indeed you could of invaded Jamaica at the soonest opportunity, having asked it to restore democracy previously (and being refused in all likelihood) and have fulfilled the letter of the charter. On this and in various other crises, Vinland chose to interpret PADA and its own national role (hand-wringing all the while) in manner that avoided hard and clear decisions, failing to make a strong stand for any position, including standing for the liberalism it proclaimed (against Trad Proletarism in the case of Jamaica, or moralism for that matter) or for a vision of PADA as an impartial institution bound only by support for democracy (questions regarding partiality being the final nail in the coffin as moralism became increasingly popular)

I think we're using the word 'Vacillate' too much.

Hindsight is indeed quite clear on this matter. It would have been better to immediately invade Jamaica. It would have also been better if Luckymoose had told anyone that he was invading Jamaica. As for the other points... that's probably true, although it was not Vinland alone who stood uncertain at PADA's role. It's indecision born of an ungainly marriage between interventionist idealism and rulebound pragmatism.

Democratic peace theory is also kind of garbage in general.

Statistically speaking, it's hard to say IRL, but in TTL it's probably getting pretty badly discredited at this point. Vinland's Social Proles have given up on it, for one.

 

[Luckymoose]

It would have also been better if Luckymoose had told anyone that he was invading Jamaica.

Cause we had spies in PADA helping the proles out. I had to keep secret. Besides, PADA was openly supporting the proletarists, calling them democratic and hoping for peace. We should have brought the hammer down. Brazil failed in the first attack, and in doing so dismantled PADA. This allowed Brazil to come back full force later and uproot the proles without any organization to get in the way.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

You could have told me personally, unless you thought that I was the spy. Brazil and Vinland both uprooted the proles, when we were presented the opportunity to do so.

 

[Luckymoose]

You could have told me personally, unless you thought that I was the spy. Brazil and Vinland both uprooted the proles, when we were presented the opportunity to do so.

I wasn't sure if you were or weren't.

 

[Terrance888]

Luckymoose, ever the revisionist.

I guess that's IC for brazil.

You could have at least trusted Johnston though.

 

[Luckymoose]

There is no revisionism here. This is how it happened.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Not sure which bit we're saying is revisionist, but here's some documentation.

Vinland will be launching a cooperative venture with Brazil this year. With the war in the UPRA, we have received word that the UPRA's Trad Prole Puppet Government is going to withdraw from Jamaica.

Brazil and Vinland shall both move to assume control over Jamaica, pronouncing the recreation of the 2nd Free Republic of Jamaica. Our forces shall help to maintain order, while the transition takes place.

Gregory Williams and the Jamaican Government-In-Exile will be free to return to Jamaica, and shall have the opportunity to run for office in the elections to come in the following year.

*****

10 Infantry Brigades, 2 Cavalry Brigades, 1 Artillery Brigade, 1 F-25 Squadron, 2 Lodjur Brigades, and 1 Lejon Brigade shall comprise the Jamaican Transitional Taskforce.

General Göran Gosling shall lead this force. It will travel by sea from Nya Stockholm to Kingston, escorted by a trio of Tufão/Tyfon-Class Destroyers Jörmungandr, Naglfar and Loke.

We will coordinate with the Brazilians to ensure that the UPRA-supported Jamaican forces stand down, and help to secure the country. I have assurances from the government of the UPRA that they will cooperate with this, but I do not know for certain how much their word is worth.

During this temporary occupation, we will work to maintain peace and ensure a constant availability of necessary food, medicine, and other humanitarian supplies. Let it be made clear that our forces will remain only until the new Jamaican government (to be elected next year) feels that it is ready once again maintain its own stability and provide for its own defenses.

Vinlandic observers, traveling with the task force, will survey the country and attempt to determine how to progress after several years of traditional proletarist rule, and how Jamaica might be restored back to a functional democracy. Their recommendations shall be communicated back to the Riksdag, and this information shall be used in our ongoing efforts to restore the independent democracy of Jamaica.

 

[Luckymoose]

I'm referring to the 1925 or 1926 Jamaican operation that failed.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Okay. I thought you were saying that Vinland wasn't involved in the later actions in Jamaica.

 

[ChineseWarlord]

Don't want to change the subject, but any updates on the update EQ?

 

[Jehoshua]

I think we're using the word 'Vacillate' too much.

Hindsight is indeed quite clear on this matter. It would have been better to immediately invade Jamaica. It would have also been better if Luckymoose had told anyone that he was invading Jamaica. As for the other points... that's probably true, although it was not Vinland alone who stood uncertain at PADA's role. It's indecision born of an ungainly marriage between interventionist idealism and rulebound pragmatism.

Statistically speaking, it's hard to say IRL, but in TTL it's probably getting pretty badly discredited at this point. Vinland's Social Proles have given up on it, for one.

I only used it twice in the previous post, and mostly because it nicely alliterates with Vinland

As to Vinland vis a vis Brazil, Brazils decisions at the time are not really relevant to Vinlands. Vinland should of outwardly acted decisively, and prepared for war to restore democracy to Jamaica (as per PADA principles) rather than wringing its hands. Whether Brazil told you or not about its plans doesn't really matter, since its Vinland that should of been less indecisive, and considering that if it had publically been clear and drawn a strong line than Brazil likely would of been more inclined to inform you of its own plans.

On indecisiveness, I agree you weren't alone, but again, Vinlands responsible for itself and its own positions. I would say however on another point, that there was not NECESSARILY an ungainly marriage between pragmatic policy and idealism. PADA was founded to promote democracy and could of been a broad church based on this core principle. The problems emerged (tangentially to its failure to apply its prinicples of democracy to Jamaica) when democracy began to be equated with liberalism (including social-prole in this) and when it failed to suitably challenge Traditional Proletarism. This sounded the final death-knell for PADA as an institution once moralism, an ideology which fundamentally opposes core liberal principles and which absolutely is anathema to Traditional Proletarism, emerged in force (thanks to me, albeit I didn't "create" moralism, I merely ignited the spark) throughout Latin America.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

The update is resuming progress today. I had an allergic reaction to some medication, and was without the ability to read anything other than large text for a couple of days. As you may realize, that can make typing and writing a bit difficult. I'm mostly back in shape as of today though, and have resumed work upon the update, getting to the critical and hard fought Vinlandic elections now, and after that quite a few other events will fall into place bit by bit.

 

[Circuit]

Wishing you well.

 

[Jehoshua]

seconded

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

Flag of the Confederation of West Francia:

Spoiler :

 

[Shadowbound]

The name is pretty terrible.

 

[Jehoshua]

I'm more wondering about the consequences of confederation with regards to the treaties of the French states and Germany. Germany has been pretty pathetic for quite some time now, but surely it cannot fail to respond to this challenge to its hegemony if confederation either a) invokes certain treaty concerns on the collective or b) directly violates them.

 

[Ophorian]

The name is pretty terrible.

Given the apparent aversion in this world to anything related to the word "France", what else would you name it?

 

[Jehoshua]

The Franconian Confederacy?
The Confederation of Frankish States?
The Occitanian Empire?