Capto Iugulum Background Thread

Immigration has dropped dramatically overall in the past twenty years. This is widely due to higher standards of living in Europe, enlarged bureaucracies, and instability in various American nations.

On a side note, all CI updates up to 1909 have been added to the wiki. Making some good progress there, and what I'd like to request from ya'll specifically is wiki entries for nations without players, as those are the most likely to be looked at by potential new players.
 
Immigration has dropped dramatically overall in the past twenty years. This is widely due to higher standards of living in Europe, enlarged bureaucracies, and instability in various American nations.

With the exception of a fairly massive armed conflict and restructuring of the face of European politics? They may be enjoying a high standard of living -- though I'd argue it can't be much higher than Argentina-Brazil -- but they sure are dying in droves. :p
 
hey eq, where the jews at?
 
EQ, I want to know where all the European Jews have got to. I haven't heard of a single Jew outside Palestine in the whole of CI, and, more importantly, I haven't observed a single anti-semitic action or pogrom, despite the fact that ethnic/religious disputes have played such an important role in CI so far, and few religions and ethnic groups have had more slaughter aimed at them over all history than European Jews - and I see no reason why the Jewish diaspora shouldn't have happened, and had as much of a history of being the victim of violence throughout the middle ages, in CI as in RL. Accordingly, I think Jews and violence or issues associated with them should have cropped up in some shape or form in CI already, and I certainly think it should crop up in the future, especially with the rise of Moralism, and especially given tendencies towards state-based nationalism in Germany and frightening anti-liberal nationalist things happening in France.

I notice that in ABNW you substituted the Flemish people as a pseudo-Holocaust, and I fear that you may be going down the same route again, as for instance in Spain where the monarchist-nationalists went in for persecuting the Basques and the Catalans - but Jews were notably absent. I'm not sure that cuts it, and I hope what happened with the Flemish in ABNW doesn't occur likewise again.

Of course, you may have considered all this and have good reasons for it all, but I thought I'd throw it out there, because it has occurred to me quite a few times in the course of CI.

Edit: cross-post with Azale; we were discussing it in #nes...
 
I don't want anyone to kill Jews; I do, however, think that a bit of popular pressure in that direction might potentially enhance verisimilitude, and I don't think that writing them out of (alt-)history is in any fashion preferable.
 
I don't want anyone to kill Jews; I do, however, think that a bit of popular pressure in that direction might potentially enhance verisimilitude, and I don't think that writing them out of (alt-)history is in any fashion preferable.

Yeah, who doesn't love the Jews?
 
Moralists I think would be generally be opposed to pogroms against Jews due to the Church's longstanding position of condemning violence against the Jews, and condemning forcible baptism. That said, the Church's position at this stage in Capto Iugulum is only a limited toleration in the sense that the Church in addition to naturally calling for the conversion of the Jews, also favours a due degree of separation socially between Jews and Christians, disapproves of Jews having authority over Christians in a public capacity, and strenuously opposes Jewish religious services taking on the character of public functions.

If we go away from the Church's official positions to that of the common people, I think the social attitude amongst many Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and protestant alike) would likely in many cases still hold the longstanding view of the Jewish people being responsible for the death of Christ (based on an interpretation of Matthew 27:24–25) and subsequently conceive of the Jews (which would be defined as anyone holding to the jewish religion, racial anti-Semitism along nazi lines was an innovation to that movement and IRL caused consternation to religious anti-Semites when it affected converts from Judaism who they thought of as no longer being jews) as an accursed people, who's existence is to be tolerated but who must always be aware of their position.

On the question of whether this view alone could lead to a holocaust though? I would say absolutely not, along the lines of the historical consensus on the matter. Historically religious anti-judaism led to the occasional pogrom when someone needed a scapegoat or when rumours of the desecration of the Holy Eucharist went around (pogroms presumably would have declined dramatically with modernisation and the strengthening of state authority), but it never led to genocide since it defined "the jew" by religion, the departure thereof of the person which was the end goal. With violence also being restrained somewhat by the Church's teaching against it. IRL the holocaust proceeded from Nazism, and its racial and social Darwinism which saw the "Aryan race" as being in competition against inferior races, with the jews, defined racially, holding a special place as a "race enemy" diametrically opposed to the "progress" of the Aryan race. Indeed interviews with Nazi's by historians noted that they themselves thought their views were rooted in biology and racial community, not in historical prejudice. Hitler himself notes that "old fashioned anti-Semitism" was insufficient he thought to a permanent solution to the problem of the Jews and thus called for an "anti-Semitism of reason" based on "scientific" conceptions of the jews as a race.

Such an ideology or conception, that sees jews in such terms as an intrinsic enemy essentially in their very nature, and which as such could result in certain circumstances in the extermination of Europe's Jewish population, thus far has yet to arise in Capto Iugulum.
 
Well, to be honest I haven't really given Jews their fair share of press or thought in comparison to other religions and peoples. It hasn't been much of a priority for me, though it probably should have been. There's elements of Judaism's influence here and there, and has been present through the NES, but possibly not to the degree that it should have been. So I've gone over my past notes and given the issue some thought and here's my perceptions of the current status of the global Jewish community:

1. The Americas have likely as not been a relative haven for Jewish immigrants, particularly Brazil and Argentina. These days the Argentines probably seem a bit more welcoming, plus everyone wants to be in movies. Beyond that these Jews have likely integrated themselves into the new national cultural and are no more or less influential than any other particular group. Of course the rise of moralism could be a matter of concern, since historically, when Catholics get all high and mighty, the Jews are often the first to suffer. Sure they may say otherwise, but the Jewish culture has a long memory, and is not likely to forget the numerous atrocities committed against them in the name of the Catholic Church. This leads us to #2.

2. The Spanish Jews: First of all, two of the players since the Great War pointed the finger at the remaining Spanish Jews (as well as the Basques and Catalans) for blame of the loss of the Great War. At the same time, I can't imagine there were many of them to begin with, as the Empire of Holy Spain did not exactly come about due to their love and harmony with the Jewish community. I imagine that in the history the Jews were heavily discriminated against in Spain and likely pogroms were quite frequent all the way up to the 19th century.

3. Jews in Britain and Western Europe: These have probably had a more blessed lifestyle, and have been fairly well integrated. Of course, in Catholic nations, as historically, they probably have faced frostier receptions. On the other hand, the greater prevalence of tolerance, liberalism, and Protestantism in the French states have possibly led to an easier life there than in the rest of Europe east of the Rhine. The British Jews actually have managed to receive some mention, if not in an update, but private discussions. These Jews did have a Zionist movement of sorts (which I kinda wanted to do soemthing with, but never really had a shot), which actually was one of the motivators of the Great War. They offered the British government money in exchange for a homeland in Israel. Unfortunately, deals with Italy and Germany forestalled these negotiations from ever gaining ground. That's more or less been the end to that story, though I've been trying to find a way to work them back in.

4. Jews in Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia: To be honest, I know nothing about Jewish history in Scandinavia, so see the bits about Russia for what little insight I have there. In Italy, the Jews have likely often fled and returned, a bit like the tide, and I could easily imagine their involvement in elements of the attempts at revolution in the 19th century. The few Jews remaining are likely closely watched by their neighbors, and I doubt it's a friendly environment at all, even with the current social prole regime. In Germany, if I recall correctly, the German Brotherhood was founded with minor anti-semetic flavor within it. Various elements of tone and ideas TheLizardKing and I discussed about the New German Brotherhood which followed unification also implied a minor degree of discrimination. While ghettos and concentration camps are unlikely, there is likely an element of discrimination and hatred present, but not one which lends itself to juicy update headlines or violence.

5. Jews in Eastern Europe, namely Russia: Here's where I feel my opportunity for further growth has been missed. After all, every one knows Fiddler on the Roof. Now, after moving all the Empires and Nations updates to the wiki, I did notice a couple of brief mentions of the Russian Jewish population. In Novgorod they were attempted to be integrated, while the Moscovites went out of their way to hold some good ole fashioned pogroms tobuild unity. Eventually Novogorod followed suit. I have little to no doubt that in the current state of Russia (and to a lesser degree Poland and Prussia), the Jews live separately from "real" citizens and pogroms are likely a popular pastime among the commonfolk. It's probably a bit easier in the larger and more developed cities, but they're still likely kept separate, except among anarchists or proletarists. Similarly, I recall Hungary has swayed back and forth from similar mannerisms through the NES. As master, like slave, I'd also suggest that we're seeing the development of similar policies and cultures in the Roman Empire. The Scandinavian government in the Kongo is probably free of this sort of discrimination, likely because the blacks are a much easer target.
 
I didn't blame the jews. I figured that would be cliched, I was all about blaming the Basques. I don't know if Nintz or Milarqui or thomas.berebug did.

I was going to dump every single Basque in the middle of the North African desert when de Rivera won the civil war.

I guess the big difference between Basques and Jews is that the Basques have a geographical area where they are a majority. Its a lot harder to systematically persecute the Basques because they're heavily concentrated in a geographical area and they'll arm up. Jews can't really do that until an active zionist movement to concentrate them in a geographical area for security (led by Jews for Jews, as distinct from a geographical movement to concentrate Jews in a geographical area for "German security") starts.
 
So there is no Zionist Prole conspiracy in India is what you're saying?
 
There will be no Jewish Holy Land in this NES. Moralism won't allow it.

Brazil wouldn't actively be antisemitic. That is something we'll leave to the Russian barbarians. We would be far more concerned with social integration and the continuation of moral order.
 
With Regards to Point 3

It would be quite erroneous, EQ, to say Protestants and Protestantism is better historically with regards to anti-judaism than the Catholic Church (although the general outcome in the areas of France and western Europe addressed would likely be the same as you say due to anti-Judaism being opposed by liberal sentiment at this point in time, and due to the protestant/Catholic divide being more prominent socially). In fact things pretty much went along in the same manner. Martin Luther to start at the beginning was famously anti-jewish and actually recommends in section XI of his book "On the Jews and Their Lies" the following "remedial measures" with regards to Judaism.

1. Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight;
2. for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings;
3. for their religious writings to be taken away;
4. for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do;
5. for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews;
6. for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and
7.for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave laborers

he also noted that one could not be held morally responsible for murdering jews who refused to convert.

I would have here with regards to Protestantism and the jews, that save with regards to the German Lands (where anti-Jewish sentiment among the people went along as it did for centuries when the area was Catholic and Martin Luthers opinions mercifully went unimplemented by the protestant princes), historically, Judaism has been noticeably absent in protestant areas. The Jews were expelled from Britain before Protestantism emerged there and so only ever formed a small community in the 19th and 20th centuries, and they were never really present in Scandinavia at all to any significant degree. Ergo, I would say that protestant anti-judaism went along the same lines as it did in Catholic Europe, but since there were far fewer jews in protestant regions its not as historically noticeable. (although you can definitely notice it in North America with such movements as the Ku Klux Klan)
 
Jews are probably regarded as enemies of the Revolution in Scandinavia, should they be thought of as OTL's Marx apparently endorsed as, "primarily capitalists". I do not expect this has translated into any anti-Semitic policies (I certainly have never undertaken any) nor is there any particular overall anti-Semitic sentiment, as Russophobia is far more common and far more dire. There probably aren't that many Jews in Scandinavia anyway. :dunno:
 
There will be no Jewish Holy Land in this NES. Moralism won't allow it.

Brazil wouldn't actively be antisemitic. That is something we'll leave to the Russian barbarians. We would be far more concerned with social integration and the continuation of moral order.

As I pointed out to EQ, I would think that while Russia certainly doesn't love the Jews, we have so many other people to hate (the dirty Proles, the treacherous Germans, the Poles, the Kazaks), they've probably been a bit overlooked
 
As I pointed out to EQ, I would think that while Russia certainly doesn't love the Jews, we have so many other people to hate (the dirty Proles, the treacherous Germans, the Poles, the Kazaks), they've probably been a bit overlooked

Thats not how it works though. Russians hated the Poles OTL as well, people didn't organise pogroms against them.

Pogroms against Jews happened almost universally worldwide because they're a spread out minority that didn't have a geographical area where they were a majority to congregate to. Pre-zionism, Jews were the minority literally everywhere, and thus couldn't congregate somewhere to arm up and fight back.

Sure, there were villages which were almost entirely composed of Jews across the Pale, but even those were surrounded by ethnic Russian or Polish or Ukrainian ones and were thus easy targets for people looking for a scapegoat

Poles and Khazaks can go somewhere to arm up, because unless there's been an insane amount of colonisation of Poland and the Khazakh khanate, they've got somewhere to go where its bloody hard to pogrom them without actual military force. Even the Khazakhs can go to the actual country the Persians set up for them, and if the Russians start making them the target of institutional or non-institutional oppression they'll just flee there. If they do it to the Germans, they'll go to Germany (like many did ITTL during the Prussian extermination). If they do it to the Poles they'll go back to former Poland and if it continues there's enough bodies concentrated in one place to make a true revolt feasible.

Jews and gypsies are unique in that they are the universal scapegoat worldwide. The only reason is because they can't fight back with any effectiveness because if they do, they're surrounded by people who will destroy them, whereas a minority with a geographical centre can and will. Thats why the British never managed to create pogroms in Ireland and had to settle for starving them to death, why the United States had to actively colonise the Midwest before massacres of native americans done by non-military bodies started happening (and even then it was a hardfought thing and the natives fought back pretty hard), and so on.

EQ's thing about protestants being better to Jews in general seems to be based around the idea that Jews had it pretty good in protestant Prussia and Germany up until 1918, as well as America and Britain being friendlier to Jews than much of the continent. By contrast, Catholic countries like in Poland (which kind of swayed between having government policies which were quite favourable and egalitarian to Polish Jews and then swinging right the other way when Pilsudski died) and France (Dreyfus affair) and Orthodox governments like Russia and Greece around this period in time have a reputation for being much less favourable. Whether that reputation is well deserved and how much was government policy and how much was people just being antisemites is another thing entirely.

ed: I get a bit "must educate!!!" about Jewish history. :p
 
I didn't blame the jews. I figured that would be cliched, I was all about blaming the Basques. I don't know if Nintz or Milarqui or thomas.berebug did.

How could you blame the Basque? How many Basque conspiracies have you heard of? Blaming the Jews is at least in line with Catholic, let alone Spanish, character.

You're right about why pogroms happened though.
 
How could you blame the Basque? How many Basque conspiracies have you heard of? Blaming the Jews is at least in line with Catholic, let alone Spanish, character.

You're right about why pogroms happened though.
Basque sepa.
 
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