Capto Iugulum Background Thread

Being coerced by the tsar, and having personal reasons (moneys) for moving to the city are not mutually exclusive. Serf life is hardly idyllic.

Correction: serfs can't move about freely of their own volition. Our Tsar friend can effect a move...

So let me get this straight. You're saying that some serfs wanted to move to the cities, at the same time as they were forced to do so. Yes? I'm sure I don't understand why you would mention this. I wasn't arguing that the Tsar couldn't force people to move, I was just saying that it was pointless. Whether people were sufficiently deluded into believing that the cities were their salvation is immaterial.
 
@jehoshua: Manpower =/= consumer population. Without going into the full details of the workings of the economy, as I'd prefer that all players are stumbling around in the dark, just like actual working world, there's some other comparisons. If we want to take a look at a similar OTL nation in a similar (but definitely not exactly the same) sort of position as our current Russia, I'd say the closest similarity is modern day China. Large amounts of wealth in specific regions of the nation, but for the most part, Russians live in abject poverty. The EP system isn't perfect by any means, but I do feel the way it currently is reflects the economic and productive realities of the world as it stands. If anything, my only problem right now is that I think a number of small European nations have too much EP proportionately.
 
@ Crezth Yes, I was saying some serfs could of have looked at a move to the city with a positive countenance due to the prospect of wealth or due to the omnipresent state-propaganda machine. As to why I mentioned it, presumably since I took your statement regarding forced movement to imply it would never work. That said I can't recall quite why I made that note now, tis late in the evening :p

@ EQ: I know it doesn't, but it does equate at least in part (it does after all exclude women, older workers and child labourers) to that part of the population which produces things. Having the same pool of manpower with a smaller population does therefore imply a change at least as I see it, to the economic dynamic as such (more workers?). Also, considering the age parameters that exist in the manpower statistic, it most definitely does imply a demographic (and thus social and presumably political) difference if you cut of a wad off the population without changing the manpower stat, since you now suddenly have a much larger youth bulge than existed before... something that is always a recipe for success.
 
@ Crezth Yes, I was saying some serfs could of have looked at a move to the city with a positive countenance due to the prospect of wealth or due to the omnipresent state-propaganda machine. As to why I mentioned it, presumably since I took your statement regarding forced movement to imply it would never work. That said I can't recall quite why I made that note now, tis late in the evening :p

OK. Makes sense. Sorry for misreading you.
 
Well, based on The Plan manpower will be getting an overall working over c. 1960. As you may or may not have noticed, I am attempting to keep the ruleset and functionality true to the time frame covered by the thread. Assuming the world adopts an economic and/or social situation more akin to our time, you can expect manpower sizes and distribution to change appropriately. For the 1920s to 1950s, I think we've got a suitable setup for EP and Manpower, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the world shapes out over the next 20 years.
 
I've already mentioned that Russia has spent the last 30+ years undergoing painful mechanization of agriculture, which by its nature has phased out large elements of serfdom. Furthermore, for those unwilling or unable to recall, Novgorod (one of the two main states behind the formation of Russia) was a far more Western-style state than Moscowy. There is plenty of industry in Russia, there's plenty of resources in Russia, and overall, plenty of reason why Russia has as much EP as it does. Does the economic system make it stable? No, but it does give it a lot of power behind its punches.

As for Brazil and Argentina, the fact is that the OTL USA did not share power in terms of Western economic powerhouses. In CI, the power of the USA is divided among a number of states in the Western Hemisphere, Argentina and Brazil just being the two obvious ones. At the same time, a lot of that potential has also gone to places like Peru, Colombia, Vinland, and even the USA to a smaller extent.

I may be willing to budge on manpower sizes and populations, but I stand behind the current economic ratings

Like I said, the main issues I have with the system is that nations like Argentina, Italy, and Scandinavia have vastly more EP per Man than Brazil does, where that shouldn't be. It gives the impression that Brazil is a third world poophole considering population to economy. Effectively making the purchasing power of Brazil beneath that of Scandinavia.

I think you should punish Lord of Elves for this! That uppity prole!
 
Don't worry, one of my past times for this NES is regularly sending menacing messages to Lord of Elves about the security of Scandinavia. I'm pleased to report that I regularly keep him in an ongoing state of paranoia. I feel it is my duty to help him be able to roleplay his state, and that's why I choose to evoke feelings of paranoia and despair. Also it's fun!
 
Also, which is the more reasonable value for Vinland's population? The 18 million that I suggested, or the 40 million that Luckymoose proposed?
 
I'd actually say somewhere in between. I'm hesitant to provide any official exact numbers for the time being.
 
Don't worry, one of my past times for this NES is regularly sending menacing messages to Lord of Elves about the security of Scandinavia. I'm pleased to report that I regularly keep him in an ongoing state of paranoia. I feel it is my duty to help him be able to roleplay his state, and that's why I choose to evoke feelings of paranoia and despair. Also it's fun!

:( I just love this country so much
 
We don't have a slave class! Just...lots of uneducated peasants. We do have capitalism, with major production of consumer goods (such as cars, tractors, some clothing) in Novgorod and Poland, which we sell throughout Europe. As mentioned earlier, Russia also sells grain and agricultural products to Europe as well, and is the primary exporter of foodstuffs to Japan. There is a lot of disposable income for the nobles, as well as our middle class (which is not very large, but still present). And Germany only united 20-30 years ago, and has fought a number of devastating wars. Most of Japan's resources (food, oil, rubber) are for internal use within the Empire and many of their American trading partners have been supplanted by Brazil and the US remnant states. As for the UK, they're colonies have been slipping away one by one for the past few decades.
Setting aside the uncertainty over the size of Russia's population and its agricultural production yield, all of which have recently been debated, the simple fact of the matter is agriculture isn't a big source of export earnings and has never propelled anyone to major power status by itself, so no matter how much Russia exports, this can be discounted for the purposes of considering why Russia is economically powerful. Essentially it has to be driven by the exports of finished goods and services. We can discount the latter because Russia's middle class and specialist pool are tiny, as admitted. So Russia has to be an export-driven economy, akin to China since the 1980s or Japan since the 1960, particularly as its own population is too poor to buy any of these finished goods (or anything, really) to sustain growth. The question is: where are these going, and under what international regime?

The interesting thing about export-driven economies is they work best (read: only) under international regimes of globalization. In real life, what might be called the First Age of Globalization occurred from ~1850-1918, underwritten by the British Empire, and the Second Age of Globalization (which we are currently in) began in 1945, underwritten by the US, although it took quite awhile to match the First Age in terms of imports (and thus, exports), and was structurally different (there are more institutions and structures, e.g., Bretton Woods, the WTO, the IMF, etc.) than the First. Now, so what? Well, the so-what is this: globalization historically happens under the guidance of a hegemon (i.e., the UK and US) which has the power to implement it, and which benefits from it. This is sufficiently the case that it remains unclear whether globalization can persist in a non-hegemonic environment (like the future) or that it would arise without one (since it never has). Absent a hegemon to herd the cats, globalization seems to collapse into tariffs and protectionism as individual nation-states defect for their own gain, promoting self-sufficiency and self-determinism. It's a sort of large-scale Prisoner's Dilemma. One big global economy breaks into a bunch of smaller local ones with only limited interaction.

So what does this mean for CI? Well, let's go back to the question: who is Russia exporting so many finished goods to that it has such a large and robust economy despite a backwards economy and poor socioeconomic conditions? I don't know. CI has never really had a hegemonic power (that I can see), and seems almost the textbook definition of a zero-sum, multipolar world, where defection rules and cooperation is done only with a dagger close at hand, as nations gear up to try and vie for being top dog, akin to the actual 1930s and 1940s. One would expect high tariffs on imports, significant protectionist barriers to foster domestic industry and safeguard it from more developed foreign rivals (notice how basically every single country develops its own weapons/vehicles or at least wants to), and so on. So this goes back to the question: who is Russia exporting to?

In addition, even if these lax circumstances exist in terms of international trade, there has to be a market for the finished goods in question. The two primary success stories of export driven growth noted earlier, China and Japan, both had a market to export to with an insatiable appetite and a seemingly boundless confidence in assuming ever more debt to spend: the United States. The American proclivity to spend versus save is well-noted as being abnormal and absent it, even with globalized conditions, the meteoric economic rise of these nations wouldn't have occurred so easily or quickly. So not only does Russia need favorable international conditions to get where it is, but also needs a buyer who really likes its products. This ignores things like transport costs (shipping things around is expensive) and the lack of developed infrastructure for doing it (modern LNG carriers, oil tankers, container cargo carriers, etc., are all far off in the future).

It might indeed be possible to have an effectively feudal nation compete in a globalized marketplace. But how has CI approximated real-life globalized conditions without seemingly any of the factors that caused globalization to occur in real life? Who is buying Russia's goods? What are they exporting anyway that uneducated and untrained serfs can make them with a low failure rate acceptable for the international market?

Russia's economy is actually pitifully small when you look at the size of the population, even assuming lesser numbers than luckymoose initially postulated. If you look at the examples nuke postulated.
Due to the fact that those people are serfs, sure. The question is why its economy is even as large as it is, as per above.

I've already mentioned that Russia has spent the last 30+ years undergoing painful mechanization of agriculture, which by its nature has phased out large elements of serfdom. Furthermore, for those unwilling or unable to recall, Novgorod (one of the two main states behind the formation of Russia) was a far more Western-style state than Moscowy. There is plenty of industry in Russia, there's plenty of resources in Russia, and overall, plenty of reason why Russia has as much EP as it does. Does the economic system make it stable? No, but it does give it a lot of power behind its punches.
A transition from slave agriculture to slave industrialization still leaves industry localized (primarily to Novgorod, which was apparently brain-drained after the takeover; see also: immigration to Vinland, et al.) and underdeveloped and still begs the question what this industry is making, for whom, and how. There's also the question of where the capital is coming from and how efficient it is given the tendency for rent-seeking behavior.

Germany is suffering the worst of the European nations from the recession, dealing with constant undermining and competition from the French states, a resurgent economy in Spain (sort of), constant flow of cheap goods from places like Argentina, Brazil, and Russia. It's a miracle they have any sort of economic relevance at all.
Has Germany just abandoned all pretense of border control and economic regulation that it can influenced by the shattered remnants of a state which are on average the size of West Virginia, and roughly as prosperous, or that it can't control its own ports and customs?
 
CI has never really had a hegemonic power (that I can see), and seems almost the textbook definition of a zero-sum, multipolar world, where defection rules and cooperation is done only with a dagger close at hand, as nations gear up to try and vie for being top dog, akin to the actual 1930s and 1940s.

In my estimation the closest CI has ever come to having a hegemonic power was Spain at its height in the 19th century in a very loosely-binary order of Spanish aligned powers against anti-Spanish powers (with the occasional rogue). But Spain has not had anywhere near the power of the OTL British Empire or the OTL United States, so I would not personally go so far as to call it a hegemon, or argue that its presence and the order of the 19th capto century could of precipitated a globalised economy in the sense you mean.

As to the contemporary order, perhaps a multipartner order (German-British axis?) could of herded the cats. But there is no clear evidence that this is the case.
 
Actually yes, Germany and to an extent, the French states HAVE abandoned protection of their own home industries and development. What started as an attempt by Germany to force the centralization of the economy around them after the Rhine-Rhone War turned instead into policies that caused their own economic failures and setbacks. Sure there's regulations to the east, but hardly any trade tariffs and regulations exist throughout Western Europe due to numerous treaties and tariff reductions. What this has accomplished has led Germany to have a powerful economic force, no doubt, but at the same time allowed other states to have far more of a share of the market, undermining overall German economic power. It remains the most powerful state in Continent Europe, but at the same time, unable to reach greater heights due to lacking any substantial power projection or the ability to actual protect home grown industry against foreign interests. Dropping the embargo against Brazil threatens to make matters worse, but we'll have to wait and see on that.

Overall, considering the proportional sizes of the other nations in the world, I feel Russia's economy is fairly well reflective of its spot in the world. As Symphony D pointed out, there is no one world hegemon, and really never has been, beyond Spain's various golden ages. When you take a statistical look at the actual world stats Russia's market share, while comparing estimated population stats is not exactly overwhelming. Yes, they're massive and have such a massive share. They are not overwhelming. As insane as it sounds, I've actually got pie charts and graphs to back me up, from the statistics I keep compiled with the stats each update.

I'd agree with Symphony D's economic analysis if the only thing harder to herd than nations or cats wasn't NESers. For NESers, to hell with the expectations, and with CI, to hell with protectionism. One of the greater struggles for me this NES is to keep track with who has free trade or reduced tariffs with who. The global market in CI is ridiculously free and untariffed. We're getting dangerously close to me actually revealing my inner workings and secret economic beliefs, so I'll stop my chatting here.
 
I don't understand the free trade people in CI. Brazil has never pursued free trade with anyone, as in this time it would be damning. Hell, the Rome Economic Pact and the American Economic thing (I forgot the name) were designed by groups of nations to be protectionist and selective. I always thought that was part of the reason Brazil went into a recession (well, besides being embargoed by the world and needed to have an inward economy for a decade). Mutual tariff reduction pacts are not the same thing as free trade, for those concerned.

But now the gates are open... :3 LET LOOSE THE CHEAP MASS PRODUCED GOODS UNTO EUROPE!
 
I don't understand the free trade people in CI. Brazil has never pursued free trade with anyone, as in this time it would be damning. Hell, the Rome Economic Pact and the American Economic thing (I forgot the name) were designed by groups of nations to be protectionist and selective. I always thought that was part of the reason Brazil went into a recession (well, besides being embargoed by the world and needed to have an inward economy for a decade). Mutual tariff reduction pacts are not the same thing as free trade, for those concerned.

But now the gates are open... :3 LET LOOSE THE CHEAP MASS PRODUCED GOODS UNTO EUROPE!

Conventional economic wisdom tends to say "free trade good, protectionism bad." and I guess people go from there without really considering it on a case-to-case basis - "I am an industrialised economy, what do I gain from this?". My free trade pacts were always carefully tailored to give me benefit personally.
 
Conventional economic wisdom tends to say "free trade good, protectionism bad." and I guess people go from there without really considering it on a case-to-case basis - "I am an industrialised economy, what do I gain from this?". My free trade pacts were always carefully tailored to give me benefit personally.

Giggle.
 
Conventional economic wisdom tends to say "free trade good, protectionism bad." and I guess people go from there without really considering it on a case-to-case basis - "I am an industrialised economy, what do I gain from this?". My free trade pacts were always carefully tailored to give me benefit personally.

Free trade is almost always unfavorable for a developing economy. No developed economy got that way without the aid of major protections.
 
It occurs to me that I have been taking the wrong approach this entire time, by addressing it in terms of OTL history and economics. So, I will now break it down from a moderator's perspective.

When creating the base ruleset and plan for this NES, the objective began with the question: "How best to create a realistic progression of events and development of nations?" From here I progress to working on a stat system that would be fairly simple to maintain for me, and learn for new players. After all, this NES is planned to go on to 2100, and at the current rate of updates, that puts the possible completion date some time around my birthday in 2018. This means that I cannot safely assume that all or any of the current players of the NES will still be active. I needed an economic system that would function both for new players and veteran ones, as well as one that can cover 200 years of an economy that could change in unexpected ways. The question was after all, how do I represent the possible military production/government research/domestic spending in a way that would still function usefully in an early 20th century protectionist global economy, WW2-style total war, a hyper-digital modern style global economy, or even a post-nuclear war economy. Right away I tossed out the notion of basing it on OTL GDP or even industrial output alone. Neither of those can really be definitively applied to any state in any condition. The only solution which I could find was the refinement of the Economic Points system which I had used in the past.

The goal of EP is NOT to fully reflect any sophisticated economic model. The key misunderstanding here is based admittedly on my opaque mechanics. There are two background stats that are automatically updated by the programs I have running which act as the base for all EP. This includes the Total Potential EP stat and the Total Actual EP stat. These have been automatically generated after each update when I input new nation stats and various other modifiers, the current ones of which I will not be sharing. These modifiers include things such as number and scale of ongoing wars, resource supply and demand, and existing amounts of tariff and free trade agreements. Using a formula that was a pain in the ass to create in the first place, taxing pretty much all of my computer skills, all these inputs generate the Potential and Actual EP stats. The Potential EP stat includes the possible values of occupied territories and colonies, while the Actual EP stat dictates exactly how much EP should be present in the next update's ending stats. Once I have these numbers I take the Actual EP stat and determine the distribution of the total growth/shrinkage of the global Actual EP from the last year. These determinations are widely based upon the modifiers I discussed earlier, though unfortunately I was unable to automate it within the program, which adds a final 30-45 minutes to the total time it takes to update.

I realize that I just threw a lot of information, so allow me to illustrate with an example. I'm doing the 1953 update. After setting up the outline and reading through all of the orders, I open up my program, load up all current stats (both public and hidden) from my Access database, and input all relevant modifiers based on the orders I just read. The program (I should really come up with a name for it), runs all of the information I have provided it, and it states that the new Actual EP should go from 7,986 to 8,002 based largely on the input "New Consumer Good" modifier. The Potential EP is listed as 8,100. The program provides a two short lists of nations, one of negative effects, and the other of positive effects and some rough percentages. Based on the information provided by the program, I have to decide who loses and who gains based on the lists provided to me. This can mean all sorts of juggling and nonsense, which is why I said this adds 30-45 minutes to the end of each update, sorting this out.

Now that (hopefully) you understand how this all works, we'll go into why we are where we are. Fact is that at this point, it's hard for me to really do a full breakdown of why each nation is as they are, and I have to rely on the notes I've taken based on modifiers that have been input in the past. The EP we have is based on what resources the nations can actually muster to apply to various tasks. A nation with a large amount of people by definition can typically accomplish a lot more overall than a nation with a small amount of people. That's simple reality, especially in matters of war and public endeavor. At the same time, a smaller nation with a highly efficient industry and strong infrastructure can too accomplish quite a bit, perhaps allowing it to rival, the larger neighbor, though surpassing it is still a difficult challenge. Because of Russia's growing overall manpower and population, its EP maintains a steady growth too. That's the fact of the system, and really, when all things are considered, Russia's growth and economic size are fairly pitiful. With all modifiers the same, if Britain somehow managed to hold a manpower of 13k+, they would have a 4-digit EP number. Of course Britain isn't going to be able to fit that many people, that's just the workings of the system. The program is most likely not perfect, I'm the first to admit, and frankly economy is not my forte, as I'm more interested in actual geopolitical themes and science(!) than I am in economics. I do believe what we have is fairly well reflective, and adequate for the purposes of the NES.


Oh, and if this is all just a "nerf Russia" bid, as some people have alleged to me I have this to say: It's everyone else's fault that Russia is what it is. There have been AMPLE chances to stop the growth and surge of Russia, and none of them have been taken. Poland built ships instead of an army, Brandenburg chose to take a dubious Russian deal instead of backing their Polish allies, Germany destroyed the F-B Confederation rather than attempting to maintain influence in Eastern Europe, and Britain has been distracted in a plethora of conflicts around the globe since the end of the Great War. Meanwhile, Russia has spent 30 years in relative peace beyond a small number of minor wars of conquest and colonial support, none of which involved more than 100 brigades at any given time. For those concerned about Russia and TLJ's ambitions, you have no one to blame but yourselves and those who came before you. Of course PERHAPS if you're truly concerned, you shouldn't be fixated on the situation at hand and who/what to blame, but rather, be looking for solutions.
 

Free trade is almost always unfavorable for a developing economy. No developed economy got that way without the aid of major protections.

Never said it was true.

Just people think it was. *shrug*

Conventional economic wisdom was a poor choice of words, but you get what I mean.
 
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