CFP Series

[namliaM]

I editted my above post some (a lot) I hope you caught that....

I am not a strong player but a confident prince / learning Monarch player. I allways learned/thought early game food = power. I may be wrong tho.... Learning allways

 

[ABigCivFan]

mm, two strong players recommending very different micro-strategies:

1) Food, Food, Food
2) Commerce, commerce, commerce.

no wonder we're still prince wannabes

Early times food leads to everything faster. working the Gold hill might get you BW, AH faster, but that does not help much since you do not have a settler waiting to settle. And it slows your pop grow.

If imporving and working the 2 food tiles first it allows your capital to get to pop 4 faster which means faster settler/worker/worrior builds.

I would recommend playing with different micro-build orders until 1500BC and compare results. that result should be more convincing than plain words and educational to us all.

 

[ChienFou]

ok, I'll play through from the beginning emphasising food (banananana, rice, gold, no road) till I get to BW and report back. I'll play the warriors the same way.

I take the point about exploring South; I had originally got a warrior down there but the wolves ate him, and the next one took one look at a lion and a bear, turned round and damp-eyed me with quivering lips. I hadn't the heart to hold an Animal games morning

I'm happy to put in the time to produce the report if you feel it's worthwhile.

I'll also push on with the formal game a bit further following AH, and bringing the bananas online

 

[bluedevil99]

I wouldn't obsess too much about micro build orders--there are a lot of variables involved. There aren't many absolutes in this game. Yes, most times early food is king, but if you work that gold mine to get BW (or AH) faster and copper (or horses) pops right by the capital, you will be one happy little BC warmonger. Just try and pick up the little tips, like farming riverside bananas before non-irrigated rice; little things like that will add up and really help your game. Keep playing the main game!!

 

[TRJS]

Keep it going Chien. I am playing a shadow game using mostly my own normal thoughts. Am very interested to see how different the results of your game and mine.

Also, you didn't say if the Mets won!

 

[ChienFou]

2740-2470BC I moved the settler behind the warrior in the build queue and carried on with AH. I continued my circling around with the Northern Warrior. The much despised road was completed and I moved the worker over to the bananas. I was able to start him right in on that, so we've gained a turn there I guess. The latest warrior set off South and my lily-livered friend of the rheumy eye and vibrating lip ducked and weaved around a bit trying to gain a South-facing forested hill to sit on with a general view to fogbusting and gaining experience from small felines rather than large ursines. He slowly drifted SE. Coward!

This worked quite well as he got 2 XPs and I gave him arrows, with a view to him garrisonning the Southern City

I kept pushing him forward SSE with a view to linking up with the Nothern Warrior who was making good progress and had got an XP too by now. He reluctantly climbed a hill and sneaked a peek over the top and what did he see? Copper! and a couple of turns later Stone! Whoopee!

Eventually we got AH (I'll skip the screenshot) and started Masonry (8 turns). All three warriors were now South of Kyoto, spread out in a long EW line. What do we spot near the wheat? Horses!. More whoopee! You can see the warriors, the copper and the horses and an unwelcome bear nearby:

... and this is the updated map of the universe as we know it.

The settler is 65/150, 10 turns from finishing and the bananas have just finished. I fancy building a road on them too, then chopping the 1N forest to complete the settler and moving onto the marble to start the quarry which will be just about when Masonry completes. The Easternmost Warrior can go on exploring and the two closer ones can act as settler escorts and fogbusters. So the real question is:

Copper or horses? and which tile? It's about now people start drawing dotmaps and so on, but I don't propose to go that route (I'm I.T. illiterate) I fancy one of the tiles on the river (which connects Kyoto) and next to the copper so we can start that immediately. Perhaps I should send the worker with the settler, and build a new worker in Kyoto? By then the copper will be online and I can, at long last, build an axe to defend Kyoto?

The subsiduary question is Masonry? or something else?

... and the important news: Cards 0, Mets 2 called off for rain at bottom of the 5th, so final result.


Gamefile 2470BC

 

[yena]

There is no good city location with the bronze in the inner ring, and a border pop may be dangerously late, so I would probably build a city on the hill NE of the horse. It is a great city location, and if you could start building chariots right away which is good enough for barb defence. Your worker should go with the settler, so you need to build a new worker in Kyoto to build the quarry and start a road network between your cities. Since you have lots of food you may want to whip the worker to save a few turns. You also need Mysticism for border pops. Perhaps before Masonry.

 

[mice]

Yena's proposed horse site is a good move. BTW the gem site will not be so easy to irrigate as I thought now that all the hills are revealed.

NE of the horse gives you good production. Keep it comin'. The detailed discussion is great.

 

[namliaM]

I would get Myst prior to Masonry, for one it gives you Obelisks (for culture & Border pop). For another it gives you a discount on Masonry (which IMHO is up after Myst) followed by Priesthood => Pottery => Writing

It is a little low on food but I like the spot just west of the mountain by the copper. Picks up the corn for food, hills and copper for production. I would start a Barracks and switch to the Obelisk ASAP for culture (whip it?)

I still like the wheat/cow city just west of the wheat, yes it misses the horses, but we can pick it up with another city down south.

I think you are really missing out on a lot by roading and not growing to size 4 prior to the settler.

You attached an old save to this set...

 

[cabert]

I played a bit more, to see where you get with more commerce and less (well just a bit less) food.
Unfortunately I got caught in the just one more turn trap, and I have no earlier save than 415BC.

some time frame : 2950 BC I discovered BW, switch to slavery in 2920 BC
I discovered masonry in 2680 BC, built the quarry really soon after that
I discovered pottery in 2500 BC
I founded Osaka in 2230 BC only, so after your save (I won't tell you where because it's a bit spoilerish).

I don't understand how you can say there is no way to have a good city with copper without at least exploring around .

If you play this right, it should be easy.
The gold is really a godsend.

 

[ChienFou]

Given worker is travelling with Settler I won't rapidly get to the quarry, so I have a time slot to pop Myst in for the monuments, then can do Masonry. Good thinking guys; I'd not have got that right if I'd played on, because it's driven by the worker going for a walk, and not being able to build the quarry for that reason.

I take the point about building roads, it was a bit of an experiment - generally I don't but the 1N hill was a real barrier.

I'm still dithering over copper or horse city. East most warrior will have a look round the copper site and West warrior at the horses (I hate bears) before I finally decide. I'll play on a bit later on today after checking back here. Roughly, I'm building Settler-worker, using 2 warriors to get the settler to its as yet undecided destination and researching Myst and masonry. That looks about right for the next gameplay. I'm keeping it short as the Prince wannabes are providing solid feedback too.

It takes 2 hours to write up 1/2 an hour of game play, but it's fun interacting about what to do next. I can see why aelf and sisiutil get a buzz despite the extra work, and the encouragement is much appreciated

Copper or horse; horse or copper ?

and I fixed the save set - it's 2470 now.

 

[namliaM]

My vote is copper
- It is on the river
a) Instant connection to the capitol = free commerce
b) Health bonus
C) Instant connection to the capitol = You can build units there the minute copper is hooked up, no need for an endless road back.
- Looks to have better food
=> Better overall potential
- Probably closer to the capitol
=> Lower cost

Just for the heck of it I took a stab at how I would settle

1) Yellow (you need some barb protection!)
2) Green next or even go out for white if Napy hasnt grabbed it yet
3) Green if you took white at 2
4) brown depending on what more is south I might move it 1 south, more info is needed there

Fist build (or whip) at the yellow city should be the Obelisk, meanwhile farm up those wines for nice 2/1/2 tiles.
Next I would get a road going from the yellow city to the copper (copper first!) and eventually corn if the borders still havent expanded.
Next make sure to get an axe or 2 before anything else for barb protection (i.e. stop building allmost anything you are building ones copper is hooked up), I think it is gonna be close...

 

[ChienFou]

I'd been leaning towards the copper city myself ('m gonna push Napoleon into the sea with an axe rush, since he's close to the gold tile.) as it pressures Napoleon, but had decided to finish looking around before finally committing. I'd have lazily put the city one south of where the dot map suggests, but I hadn't thought through the whole myst-cheap masonry thing - this is definitely one of the errors in my Prince games; I go for writing and use the Library to pop, but it's deadly slow so I have to settle next to any immediately required resource. Yay, thanks guys, this thread's really helping.

You'se'll all have to laugh, I'm also playing another different game offline with these parameters and am now leading in c. 1600 (despite my Library method) - which is way my best result for an attempt at a domination win. trebs, CR3 grens and knights mince longbowmen

 

[cabert]

if you want copper, you don't want it in the second ring do you?
Or do you have a special plan to get the culture in there fast?

 

[ChienFou]

still thinking about it cabert; assuming I decide copper city - and I'll know before the settler's built (10 turns) moved (6 turns) develop copper, (6 turns) - that's going to take me to later than 2000BC - it's running it fine if I also build an obelisk (say 10 turns) and wait for the pop (10 turns) - I think I'll be over-run by then. I think I need to settle next to the copper (or indeed the horse for the same reason). Settling next to horse looks bad (coast, yuk and plains hill yuk), there are clearly better tiles for that city.

So my strategic thinking is that the copper city is better as any of the tiles round there are similar. 1NW of copper lets me irrigate the wine but loses corn, and gives me direct connection to Kyoto. The short term implications are huge, and the long term downside is smallish. The dot map can be jiggled a bit to make it work too.

I think it'll be a close run thing vs the Barbars. I'm going to play it now.

 

[ABigCivFan]

In this case, I would build at least 2 workers before producing the 1st settler. Your capital still need improved marble, and your copper city will need 1 worker to chop the monument and improving tiles.

Without the support of a worker, a new city is typically useless for many turns until its 1st resource tile is improved.

2nd city 2N 1W of copper picking up 4 resources. Chop momument ASAP, then improve the corn, then copper.

dont worry about the barbs it is still early. having 2-3 aggressive worriors in copper city should be sufficient, fortify them in hill/forrest terrian around the city.

I would build the 3rd worker before 2nd settler. Settler 3rd city 1S of wheat to pick up Cow/Wheat/Horse. It will be a super unit production city after adding HE to it.

Right after 3rd settler, build some worriors/axe to protect all 3 cities, and should have priesthood by then. Build/Chop oracle and take Monachy. then you can improve the wines in 2nd city.

Build roads to the 2 new cities to have a 3 city network. And possibly consider an axe rush on Nappy.

 

[ChienFou]

2470-2080BC Oh dear, I founded it next to the copper, I'm paranoid about barbars. Anyways, this round is mostly about the 3 brave warriors, adventures with a bear and a couple of lions and some incredibly good (lucky?) timing. I'd worked out that the worker could build a road on the corn and chop the 1N forest to complete the settler with the overflow going to the 2nd worker. So I sent West warrior to look at the horses (goddarn bear again!), Eastern warrior to check out round the copper, and middle warrior to fogbust the route to whichever location I chose for Osaka.

Mysticism arrived in 2290, I'll skip the screenshot. By 2230 I'd checked out round the copper and didn't find much but the fogbusters were getting into place

and I finished checking the horses and ran into that darned bear. I semaphored the funeral parlour to run up a box and earmarked a site on top of the about-to-be deforested hill North of Kyoto and hit the enter button.

The settler turned up and he made up a party with the worker and they set off across country. I assured them that they were as safe as houses travelling unprotected (I lie convincingly) and the 2 fogbusters were in place

Then I arranged for the burial party, except there was no bear but rather a warrior in full health, so I promoted him with a melee promotion, in case he meets Barbar warriors. This caused serious embarrassment with the funeral parlour as they insisted on a deposit for the box. I guess I'll need it later so I told them to go ahead anyway.

You can see the settler leaving Kyoto, the first warrior in the fogbusting line had encountered a lion a couple of turns before but was relatively healthy and I was shortly to send him back to Kyoto as a garrison (he has arrows promotion), just in case the Barbars turn up before copper comes on line.

We got Masonry in 2110 as the travellers were being passed from warrior to warrior (again, I'll skip the shot), and so I took advantage of this by changing civics to slavery - I'd had long in mind to switch after the settler was born but before he founded Osaka, and it worked out perfectly. I started on writing, as I like to take the mathematics route to CoL playing Tokugawa, but we could change that.

The fogbuster on the target square who had been fortified a few turns survived a lion so he got arrows too. I've concluded that we get Barbar warriors and archers first, so I like this promotion for garrison warriors. It seems better than City defence, and they can be moved to protect improved tiles too.

We founded Osaka in 2080 and set it to building a monument and set the worker to mining the copper and all this on the turn we came out of Anarchy. It's connected to Kyoto by the river so we can get axes up pretty quick in out capital. Hirohito will be relieved to hear it.

Meantime my bear-baiter had been pretty busy checking out the horses and was working his way along the coast SE towards where I guess we'll find the others. He's looking at a lion at the moment but he's in a wood and I have every confidence in him. I might even rename him Hiroshi as a mark of respect. Here's the known Universe.

The worker is well under way in Kyoto thanks to the overflow, the 2 cities are garrisonned (or about to be) against early barbars, we're building a mine on the copper and a monument in Osaka.

... and it's Decision time. More infrastructure, or a bee-line to CoL via mathematics? What about Oracle? Long term Pyramids?


Gamefile 2080BC

 

[bluedevil99]

EDIT: Ok, I had initially responded to your post ending in 2470 BC, lemme edit and add comments since then.

Major break there on the copper, looks like you'll have both early strategic resources.

You founded the copper city first as I would have suggested. However I would not have founded Osaka where you did. Having corn in the BFC is huge for an early city, and you now have three unworkable squares and a desert hill in the BFC. I know you're worried about barbs but well positioned, fortified warriors CAN be an adequate defense, and sometimes having great early cities is worth taking risks.

Anyway, what's done is done. Since you've got the copper, you might as well mine it asap.

After you get a that worker out in your capitol, hook up that marble, build an axeman while you grow to 4, then build a settler (I'd use one chop to speed up the settler). Send your worker south with the settler, immediately farm the wheat and then chop a monument.

Why are you going for writing now? I guess it's ok if you want to sign OB with Napolean to scout him out, but with both early resources this looks like an early warmonger game: build monuments and then axemen, not libraries! I would switch to polytheism -> priesthood; with marble you should at least give yourself the *option* of building the oracle. By then you'll hopefully have both cities online and can send a warrior over Napolean's way to see just how tough a nut he's going to be to crack. Meanwhile your second cities should be building barracks and axes.

It would be very useful to know how strong Napolean is... you should probably build the oracle, but the #1 priority here should be a BC rush against Nappy.

 

[namliaM]

Like blue said YUK ! on the settling of Osaka, if you want to rush the copper you should have grown to size 4 and whipped the settler out faster now you have a (way) subobtimal city with no food and a desert copper (2 food) 3 Grass hills (3 food) Dessert hill (2 food) and 2 plains tiles (2 food) presuming you are going to put wineries on both Wines.... you need 9 food to work the hammers = 9 farms = no commerce at all. Which IMHO is bad!

IMHO you are not using the whip at all... starting the worker back to back with the settler while at size 3
Your production you had put into the warrior (which was on que) is now totaly gone every hammer lost at this stage counts double time!
Growing the city to size 4 while producing the warrior (or warriors as the case may be) would have allowed you to effectively whip and produce everything faster. The warriors would have been good fog busters to ward off the barbs which you fear so much. No fog = No barbs. That is nearby atleast, buying you time to connect the copper while waiting for the border pop.

On Oracle, for a "demo" game where you try to get your feed wet on the next level... Stay of the crutches IMHO. NO wonders that you your self build, capturing them is OK offcourse....
I would say Math => Alphabet (to trade for IW hopefully + some religion and backfill techs, but IW is the biggy) => Construction => Currency => CoL (or CoL => Currency depending on the situation)

 

[ABigCivFan]

Bad timing on Myst/Masonary. You won't need monument until you settled the 2nd city, so getting Masonary before Myst is much better as your worker can immedietly bring 1+4+1 marble on line.

I would also let Kyoto growing to size 4 before starting settler since marble will speed up your settler by 5 production points per turn.

As pointed out by other players, Osaka is in a bad location, should have settled it to claim all 4 resources.

Also your capital has great production capacity AND it has marble in BFC. It is a sin if you do not at least try to get Oracle.