Change the system

[Bozo Erectus]

So this kid started a family and then went to college?

I knew people were going to assume that. No, he was the principal bread winner in his family, and was helping to support his mother and little brothers.

 

[IglooDame]

I knew people were going to assume that. No, he was the principal bread winner in his family, and was helping to support his mother and little brothers.

And it's your contention that he should have been provided a way to go to college while being his family's principal breadwinner?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I cant think of a better way for a government to invest its money, than in the education of its citizens.

 

[IglooDame]

I cant think of a better way for a government to invest its money, than in the education of its citizens.

So going to college on a full scholarship and still working full-time as the family primary breadwinner?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Igloo, what exactly are we arguing about here? That everyone does or doesnt get a full scholarship? Or that the government shouldnt provide people with an education? That he shouldnt be working full time?

 

[IglooDame]

Igloo, what exactly are we arguing about here? That everyone does or doesnt get a full scholarship? Or that the government shouldnt provide people with an education? That he shouldnt be working full time?

Good question. You seemed upset that the fellow was induced to join the military and serve in Iraq through his failure to successfully complete college while being his family's primary breadwinner. I personally think that #1 being motivated to go get shot at in Iraq by the promise of money is hardly the government's/military's fault in the first place, and #2 the promise that "we'll take care of your family, here's tuition for college" is one that no government can afford to make.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You know, its entirely on the determination of the individual as to whether they will or will not 'move uo in life.' Lets look at Colin Powell, for instance. He grew up in Harlem, and at his high school, more students were arrested every year than graduated from the school. It was his own determination and hard work that pulled him up out of that, and he has no one to thank but himself. It IS possible, thats why i feel the people that are still 'down there' are there on their own doing, not something that society has done.

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

i dunno if anybody has said this but i am very proud to be an american and joining the military and fighting for my country's welbeing and freedom is the ultimate way to show that.

 

[Samson]

#2 the promise that "we'll take care of your family, here's tuition for college" is one that no government can afford to make.

I am not so sure now, but 15 years ago this was an option in the UK. Taking care of the family was not much more than providing just about enough money to stay above the bread line, and of course every gets health care. I knew people who did it.

 

[IglooDame]

You know, its entirely on the determination of the individual as to whether they will or will not 'move uo in life.' Lets look at Colin Powell, for instance. He grew up in Harlem, and at his high school, more students were arrested every year than graduated from the school. It was his own determination and hard work that pulled him up out of that, and he has no one to thank but himself. It IS possible, thats why i feel the people that are still 'down there' are there on their own doing, not something that society has done.

From Colin Powell's bio:

Colin Luther Powell was born in Harlem in 1937. His parents were Jamaican immigrants who stressed the importance of education and personal achievement. Powell grew up in the South Bronx, where he graduated from high school without having formed any definite ambition or direction in life. He entered the City College of New York to study geology and it was there, by his own account, that he found his calling when he joined the Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC). He became commander of his unit's precision drill team and graduated in 1958 at the top of his ROTC class, with the rank of cadet colonel, the highest rank in the corps.

Powell was commissioned a second lieutenant in the United States Army, and was one of the 16,000 military advisors dispatched to South Vietnam by President Kennedy in 1962. In 1963, Lieutenant Powell was wounded by a punji-stick booby trap while patrolling the Vietnamese border with Laos. He was awarded the Purple Heart, and later that year, the Bronze Star.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Just this morning I found out that someone I used to work with will soon be deployed to Iraq. The poor kid is a victim of the American Dream, which these days, really is just a dream. He generated so much debt trying to make the dream a reality, by going to college, that he had no option but to join up to have his debt wiped clean.

So this bright, intelligent young man may, god forbid, lose his life or one of his limbs, fighting a war for Haliburton, because his pursuit of an education rendered him a pauper.

The American Reality is beginning to eclipse the American Dream.

Bozo, you are full of crap.

I'm sick and tired of this attitude of "the man is keeping me down". It's BS! If you are ambitious and apply yourself, you can achieve something of your life. But if you are lazy or lack determination, you won't get anywhere. My family didn't have a dime to their name, and yet they were able to work their way up in "the system" to earn a good living. I myself am in debt up to my eyeballs. I was already in debt when I took out a mortgage. Did you think that stopped me from getting it? No! How do you think I went to college and then medical school? My parents? No, I had to take out loans!

Which brings me to your friend. Why is he so stupid as to think he needed to wipe his debt clean by joining the military? Last I heard, debt is not a crime in the United States.

 

[tomsnowman123]

The fact is that the gap between the rich and the poor in the US is increasing rapidly. I find it hard to believe that everybody that is poor has a fair opportunity, or else this gap would not be increasing at the rate that it is currently.

 

[joycem10]

During that period of time, were you trying to support a family? Or were you being supported by your family?

Neither. (10)

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I'm sick and tired of this attitude of "the man is keeping me down". It's BS! If you are ambitious and apply yourself, you can achieve something of your life. But if you are lazy or lack determination, you won't get anywhere. My family didn't have a dime to their name, and yet they were able to work their way up in "the system" to earn a good living. I myself am in debt up to my eyeballs. I was already in debt when I took out a mortgage. Did you think that stopped me from getting it? No! How do you think I went to college and then medical school? My parents? No, I had to take out loans!

I know you arent a dummy, but you dont seem to understand how complex life is. You believe that because you were able to accomplish something, that means that everyone, everywhere, regardless of the infinite number of ways their situation differs from yours, should be able to accomplish the same things. What everyone with this view fails to realize is that the same question can be turned on them. Bill Gates worked hard, and today he's worth $50 billion. Compared to Bill Gates, Nano, are you lazy? Do you lack determination? Is Bill Gates a better human being than you are?

Which brings me to your friend. Why is he so stupid as to think he needed to wipe his debt clean by joining the military? Last I heard, debt is not a crime in the United States.

You can call me every name in the book, but do me a favor, dont call this kid stupid, you dont know him, and he isnt here to defend himself, and this 'stupid' kid, is now on his way to Iraq. I dont know all the details of his personal economic situation, but I know that his isnt an isolated situation. Unlike alot of the people here, I actually know members of the growing 'working poor' class.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Bozo, you are full of crap.

I'm sick and tired of this attitude of "the man is keeping me down". It's BS!

O RLY?
I'm sick and tired of the almost jingoistic American Dream-chanting! I'm sick and tired of the "your problems are your own fault, bleep you" attitude! Now that's BS, and not only BS, but immoral BS!

If you are ambitious and apply yourself, you can achieve something of your life. But if you are lazy or lack determination, you won't get anywhere.

If you're so witty, how come you ain't Bill Gates, like Bozo said?
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3518560

Take the study carried out by Thomas Hertz, an economist at American University in Washington, DC, who studied a representative sample of 6,273 American families (both black and white) over 32 years or two generations. He found that 42% of those born into the poorest fifth ended up where they started—at the bottom. Another 24% moved up slightly to the next-to-bottom group. Only 6% made it to the top fifth. Upward mobility was particularly low for black families. On the other hand, 37% of those born into the top fifth remained there, whereas barely 7% of those born into the top 20% ended up in the bottom fifth. A person born into the top fifth is over five times as likely to end up at the top as a person born into the bottom fifth.

...at an elite university, you are 25 times as likely to run into a rich student as a poor one.

 

[7ronin]

It may not be eradicated completely from humans to try to take advantage of others, but I think in the past it was close, the hunter-gatherers had a lifestyle where there was no organized violence.

No violence? How do you explain the demise of the Tisenjoch Glacier Mummy who was apparantly murdered by more than one person.

 

[tomsnowman123]

No violence? How do you explain the demise of the Tisenjoch Glacier Mummy who was apparantly murdered by more than one person.

What, two people? Three? (sorry, I don't know). There was [probably] no war back then, because they weren't capable of committing to it.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If chimpanzees can wage war, why shouldnt prehistoric people?

 

[malclave]

Man that uses some confusing statistics. You have to wonder if they are not trying to hide the true picture behind obsure stats.

Percentage recruits vs. 18 - 24 year olds? Do they really mean that 25% of 18 - 24 year olds in the Downscale / Lower Mid / Midscale socio/economic groups are in the milatry? That is huge.

Doesn't look that confusing to me... you're referring to Figure 3?

The black bar refers to the percentage of 18-24 year olds nationwide in that economic group. The colored bars refer to the percentage of recruits in that group.

He generated so much debt trying to make the dream a reality, by going to college, that he had no option but to join up to have his debt wiped clean.

He was not able to declare bankruptcy?

So this bright, intelligent young man may, god forbid, lose his life or one of his limbs, fighting a war for Haliburton, because his pursuit of an education rendered him a pauper.

"War for Halliburton". Does this alleged friend even exist, or is he someone you just made up to support the same, tired old rhetoric?

 

[tomsnowman123]

If chimpanzees can wage war, why shouldnt prehistoric people?

Because they're too busy getting food?