[R&F] Civ of the Week: Greece

[BarbarianHunter]

Also pretty sure capturing theater squares is harder as Greece as non hill ones get razed? Seems like you'd work it in reverse. Capture campuses and hubs, then add an Acropolis of your own.

You had me worried there for a minute on the assumptions I had made regarding the disposition of captured theatre squares. I had thought of it as a cheat of sorts for Greece (yet another incentive for warring). But I could also see how you could be right (as Holy Sites in cities Kongo captures are razed). I thought maybe I just didn't notice. So I checked the latest game and found a captured theatre square on the plains in Rome. I mean I don't have allot of due diligence on the matter (other than this one fact check), but based on this image, I can say with reasonable certainty that they don't raze if not on hills and can be captured.

Spoiler :

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well that's good to know. Can never tell with this game.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I favor Gorgo over Pericles, but reading this thread makes me want to try him again. I play marathon speed, so the extra culture from Gorgo's early warfare is really noticeable to me there.

Gotta love the hills start bias and Acropolis, as elaborated by others. I've never really tried Hoplite warfare.

Started a Marathon speed game with Gorgo for comparison with a standard speed game I played yesterday with Pericles. I managed to complete Political Philosophy by year 2120 BC. Pericles was essentially about to begin researching State Workforce at the same date. For whatever the reason, I felt like stabbing myself in the eye again, and chose deity difficulty. One thing of note is that deity level may favor Gorgo, in that the opportunities for cultural exchange with the barbarians are abundant and plentiful! Before the era changed to Classical I must have killed like 10 warriors, 6 slingers, 2 archers, 3 or 4 scouts, and 3 spearmen. Add 4-5 Eagle Warriors and 1 Aztec archer as well and there you have it. I am thinking of having my archers learn Korean next.

I also lucked into starting near the Dead Sea. I wonder if I created a couple of Hoplites and just sat them there, whether the barbs would spawn, then mindlessly impale themselves against my Hoplites (providing culture) before the Hoplites healed to full strength at the end of every turn due to adjacency to the Dead Sea? LOL.

Spoiler :

 

[Victoria]

Pericles can work both ways, its not about a hard and fast 1 route strat.
However for the fastest science victories which can only happen on deity (due to the gold you can get off the AI) with a good map for a fast start and room to expand.... thrash out settlers then chop in theaters and push great writers to the limit, campi as second builds. its about speeding up the snowball.

One of the most important advanced strats I learnt a long time ago was concentrate purely on what you need, nothing else... do not be misled by that glittering gold, it is a Midas trap. Early suze means nothing, early single envoys give huge early rewards. I mean +2 culture when you are only making 1.2 culture is a huge leap. Even at 10 culture +2 if huge. In GOTM39 settling near the right wonder gave +4 culture from a single builder charge. Its not about doing 1 formula but knowing your surroundings and making the most efficient use of them. One envoy at a CS means you get a chance of an emergency and that means +2 settlers or whatever snowball you need at the time.

Peaceful deity Peri may be mighty fast but is a purist theory or a fluke map. Violent Peri where you can get those cities earlier for your theater *and* campi is key. A couple of +4 campi early is mighty tempting when they can be +8 mighty quick. in R&F the AI struggles now to get high levels of science and culture and it is common to see them at around 25-30 of each at T100. Just do not get overexcited and chop too early, its about getting the cities and the districts laid and then chopping them in at feudalism.

For a fun game I will not play Peri, the cartoon picture alone I just want to punch and his ramp up is just too easy, no challenge. This is why prefer Gorgo the gorgeous, warrior women of worth. The early culture is to a degree a fallacy due to lost inspiration and at T80 when playing against Peri and finding he is outstripping you makes you realize he is in fact quite good. The AI bonus on top of his on higher levels makes him always a threat.

When was the last time anyone felt threatened by England?

 

[sixty4half]

Alright, so we're concerned that Gorgo might defeat the purpose. Her culture gain might cause us to earn civics before we can get eureka's which might make her ability pointless, or, in the least, less valuable than it appears on paper.

Does anyone switch to a different civic/tech after researching one halfway, just to wait for the eureka? I do this sometimes and it does save me a few turns here and there. Say I'm beelining to Gunpowder to upgrade my swordsmen. I need to get Apprenticiship, Stirrups and Military Engineering first. I have 2 mines, no aquaducts, no feudalism and no armory. So I set my Civic tree to Feudalism if I can reach it within the next ~18 turns. And then I set my research to Apprenticeship (production first). While I research that I send a builder to a hill. But if I don't have a builder, I gotta buy one or build one first. If he isn't at the hill in 6 turns, I switch to Stirrups. I do 6 turns of stirrups and go to military engineering. I should have an aquaduct finished soon. After 6 turns of ME, I have an aquaduct, have finished Feudalism and the mine, so all 3 techs pop off at relatively the same time +/- a couple turns. I didn't waste any (much) research by putting more than 50% (or as close to possible without being under) into any of those techs.

Now, I'm sure better players can punch holes in this example all day long. Why do you not have 3 mines? ect ect ect That's not the point of what I'm trying to illustrate. I'm just wondering if anyone else micromanages any of their techs/civics in this way? And if so, have you tried this approach with Gorgo, switching to a diff civic after getting to 50% in an attempt to gain Eurekas and not waste her bonus culture?

 

[Archon_Wing]

Does anyone switch to a different civic/tech after researching one halfway, just to wait for the eureka?

Yea. Sometimes I'd wait on inspirations like State Workforce and Mysticism like in the last game I played. But the problem is though early game it's not about getting the most civics but getting the key ones. So what would end up happening is I'd almost get like Drama and Poetry really fast before Political Philosophy sometimes because there's nothing left to "save" for inspirations.

 

[RealHuhn]

Pericles can work both ways, its not about a hard and fast 1 route strat.
However for the fastest science victories which can only happen on deity (due to the gold you can get off the AI) with a good map for a fast start and room to expand.... thrash out settlers then chop in theaters and push great writers to the limit, campi as second builds. its about speeding up the snowball.

One of the most important advanced strats I learnt a long time ago was concentrate purely on what you need, nothing else... do not be misled by that glittering gold, it is a Midas trap. Early suze means nothing, early single envoys give huge early rewards. I mean +2 culture when you are only making 1.2 culture is a huge leap. Even at 10 culture +2 if huge. In GOTM39 settling near the right wonder gave +4 culture from a single builder charge. Its not about doing 1 formula but knowing your surroundings and making the most efficient use of them. One envoy at a CS means you get a chance of an emergency and that means +2 settlers or whatever snowball you need at the time.

Peaceful deity Peri may be mighty fast but is a purist theory or a fluke map. Violent Peri where you can get those cities earlier for your theater *and* campi is key. A couple of +4 campi early is mighty tempting when they can be +8 mighty quick. in R&F the AI struggles now to get high levels of science and culture and it is common to see them at around 25-30 of each at T100. Just do not get overexcited and chop too early, its about getting the cities and the districts laid and then chopping them in at feudalism.

For a fun game I will not play Peri, the cartoon picture alone I just want to punch and his ramp up is just too easy, no challenge. This is why prefer Gorgo the gorgeous, warrior women of worth. The early culture is to a degree a fallacy due to lost inspiration and at T80 when playing against Peri and finding he is outstripping you makes you realize he is in fact quite good. The AI bonus on top of his on higher levels makes him always a threat.

When was the last time anyone felt threatened by England?

Yeah, a powerful peaceful round with a couple of liberation wars requires certain map conditions for sure. I also agree that early culture should be high priority.
Waiting to chop districts does ruin the district discount mechanism though because it only triggers after you complete districts. Chopping/building two early campuses unlocks the first discount right away and also adds those nice great people points, especially good if you also build the Oracle. If you wait too long, all discounts will be gone until mid game.

In your scenario with an early expansion through war etc., I'm sure it works best the way you described it though. Oracle and early district discounts are more focused on peaceful play.

Edit: I don't think I've ever lost a city to England ^^

 

[Victoria]

Oracle and early district discounts are more focused on peaceful play.

District discounts = yes
Oracle = no

Spoiler :

GOTM 39 I saw Kabul in front of me... I was going to get lots of horse and knights and the 100% XP helps a lot but all those trees... and my home cities had few. Oracle needs a campus and a puppet show to really blow

 

[Archon_Wing]

So I played a game as Pericles this time and for some reason ended on the same turn as my Gorgo game (248), proving I really just do the same crap every game.


I do think this is the highest culture I've gotten. 2nd highest I think was 700ish as England in Vanilla RIP)

There was one more CS out there I never met til the end and Stockholm also died and I accidentially clicked on reject for the Emergency, plus I was too lazy at that point to go to war.

Start was this:
Emperor/Shuffle/Normal


I didn't save until I settled unfortunately, but I don't think there's anywhere to move (I moved off the hill from the west. Decided to not war but then Phillip decided to attack and I killed him off with knights + GG as Greece gets those so easily.

 

[Morningcalm]

But Greece can easily amass a high amount of culture per turn very early in the game, making 5% much better than probably even 20% would be for a civ like Korea. For example with the Oracle and those cheap theatre squares with high adjacencies, you get a ton of early great writers as well for even more culture. Sure, if you only build campuses with Pericles (like suggested above) and wonder why the 5% doesn't do much, then I don't know what to say anymore ^^

I do build acropolis as Greece, but the problem really is that early on, 5% culture buff for a city making 6 culture is still minuscule. At least with Korea it's easy enough to get a Governor one more promotion to boost that %. With Greece you need more suzerainties (!!!)

 

[BarbarianHunter]

After testing a peaceful Theatre Square 1st blitz with Pericles yesterday, I decided to run a Gorgo comparison with campuses and aggression. Gorgo and the aggression certainly won out over the non-aggressive Pericles. Once the campuses I built in the mountains came online, it was never really close ever again. By turn 101 the game was already over.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Genghis tried tbut ran into the crossbowmen in the spoiler image and a choke point. The next turn they upgraded to field cannons. 10+ Mongol knights and a couple of Keshig units shredded over the short 10 turn war. And after a lucrative peace deal, he was soon thereafter treated to a super-sized serving of tank corps/armies. Think aggression.

Spoiler :

As one might expect (counterintuitive), as Gorgo receives no extra bonus for being the suzerain of city states, and the map I chose for her was standard sized (as opposed to huge for Pericles), there were plenty of city states around to both dump envoys into as well as liberate.

Spoiler :

Conclusion: Science + Aggression = A relatively easy Win. If I want to mix things up, or have some “fun,” I can try an alternative strategy like a Theatre Square blitz. But I have to expect to struggle more (which I find I don’t really like so much). But if I want to win, it’s science, science, science. Then I can tinker and try to buff the leader traits.

Note: I usually play on Immortal and noticed Gorgo to be much improved as there are literally hordes of barbarians with which a slinger can engage in cultural exchanges around the capital without fear of being eliminated. On immortal I would sometimes feel as though there weren’t enough barbarians around. This is not so on deity and adds considerable value to Gorgo’s early game ability.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Greece seems really good on paper but I tend to struggle with them for some reason. I don't find Gorgo's ability to be that useful and I typically don't get PP that much earlier and as some others mentioned culture boosts tend to hit before Inspirations. I tried some early rushes against neighboring city states but just didn't have enough units to really make it work. The wildcard slot is great of course and the discount theaters really give them an edge for CV. I think I prefer Pericles. I would definitely opt for early theaters with Greece ideally with an early wonder which will I think will lead to much faster victory times maybe in combination with a horsemen rush and early GG which is easier to get with their extra slot and you can just capture enough campuses or pillage to keep up in science. Running God King early can help them snag a better pantheon without sacrificing production and you can faith buy the first GG if you get goddess of the harvest. The hill start bias doesn't seem to help that much as I got plenty of poor land with them.

 

[Morningcalm]

There isn't as much potency to Greece's abilities I find. The single policy slot is great for an early religious start but weakens in light of potent multifaceted abilities like Poland's, or focused and powerful abilities like those of the Aztecs. The leader and Civ bonus needs some additional small bonuses to be on par with the (sometimes excessive) complexity, but also flexibility and potency, of newer civs, particularly those from the DLCs, like Persia or Nubia, who are quite strong.

I'm still annoyed Greece gets no Great Artist or Great Writer bonus of any kind (short of their home district being cheaper, albeit required to be built on hills).

 

[acluewithout]

Greece would be more fun if their unique unit was a little sexier.

I quite like Greece’s bonuses - whether they’re powerful or not is one thing, but I like just how straightforward they are. And they get you into using core parts of the game which work very well - culture, civics, policies, envoys.

But then that spearman unit. Sigh. I’m not saying it’s bad. I’m saying I just can’t get excited about them. I think it would have been better if the Hopites were a bit punchier and got the “culture from kills ability”, and then Gorgo could have been given some other culture related ability.

 

[eleven11]

Deity - Pangea - Gorgo - Standard All

This is my 3rd game with Gorgo in about as many days. About a good of start as they come. Plains hills capital. Early luxes. Lots of chops. BO Warrior -> Settler

Kilimanjaro in an expansion area. Triggered a free builder from ruins. Going to sell those luxes… Haven't peaked east yet but I should be fairly safe with all the rough terrain.

Spoiler Looking a little rough out there.. :

Not a whole lot to kill so building a monument to speed up culture. I need Oligarchy for the hoplites so they aren't complete trash. I'm feeling safe due to the terrain and the fact that I've met only two Civs. First settler Kilamanjaro bound. Poundmaker to north east.. Planning to keep him as a friend. Sold him my diamonds for 8gpt. Grabbed another emissary in Antioch so I'm thinking that's the end of the map there. Builder has got nothing to do so he's taking a walk to the east.

Spoiler Warrior is a little out of position.. I chased a scout because I can't find barbs anywhere and I need Bronze eureka. The one west is hording out at the moment. :

Cash is definitely not a problem but another delay.. A Barb horde from Zanzibar decides to change my priorities. I led some north with my wounded warrior, with mixed results. This is a slow start.. I'm sending builders to chop out settlers. Arabia to the east.. In my crosshairs. They conquered Geneva which rebelled almost instantly. It will fall to me due to Athens population courtesy of Kilimanjaro.

Spoiler Geneva will be mine :

War has come. Arabia wants their Geneva back. My chopped settlers are in place and I'm fighting a defensive war for the moment. Iron Working is close so my counter attack is at hand! I was able to get Goddess of the Harvest around T30. Someone is chewing up Sumeria. He capped Palenque and it rebelled. Poundmaker is pretty aggressive this game. Hope I'm not next… I'm doing all I can to keep him happy.

Spoiler Please stay happy :

Arabia has failed to retake Geneva and now I have swords. I also chopped down a late Oracle. Not sure why I took that chance… it's hard for me to resist a wonder if I have the chops. It will be a nice +4 bonus for Acropolis when I have time… Also.. Do I spy a natural wonder down in Hattin?

Spoiler I may just help myself to a little Hattin :

Hacks and lies! Mecca was taken to 0 HP but it did not fall and Baghdad will rebel next turn. On the home front I'm catching up on districts and gearing up for a chop-fest. Oh.. And I bribed Sumeria to join the war for a measly 90 gold.

Spoiler Which I will recompense by looting that trade route next turn :

Had to rush buy a battering ram to deal with Hattin. But Arabia is done… stick a fork in him.

Spoiler Give me all the builders! :

During the chaos of war, Palenque rebelled and joined Arabia. So, I liberated them. Thankfully, Arabia's last city will rebel in a few turns so I'll just let that take them out and avoid the warmonger penalty.

Spoiler Oh, I was able to hammer in a turn 82 Temple of Artemis. :

The rest of the world seems pretty pleased that I just finished with the Arabian cleansing. I am in a golden age so I'm faith-buying settlers to fill in the gaps and commencing deforestation. This is where my one-more-turn syndrome ended for the day. A lot of things went right in this run.

Spoiler Jeez Korea, do you science much? I'll need to prep for the arrival of her Hwachas. :

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Gorgo has always been one of my favorite leaders to play, and I feel like she has extremely competitive bonuses. I had an unusual Deity run with Gorgo yesterday. I was fairly far from all the other civs but I got free envoys from two cultural CS. My only act of aggression was to take Stockholm in order to control the territory between Tamar and myself. Even with minimal early war the culture from kills still got me to Political Philosophy in good order. The extra wild card slot is extremely nice as well, especially because it allows me to make better use of the card that boosts builders at the same time that I'm Magnus-chopping settlers. I believe I had a golden Classical, Dark Medieval and Heroic RennaisanceAge... I feel like I'm still not managing my era score effectively. I was attacked twice by Tamar, but had no trouble fending her off and declared a protectorate war against Harald to protect Vilnius. I never took their cities but they paid up each time. This is was the first time that I've made use of Kilwa Kiswani, and I have to say I'm impressed. Granted late game I was only the Suzerain of 5 CS because that's all that were left, but it paid off nicely even though I did it as an after-thought because it was available late. I'd imagine it could be huge if used properly by Pericles. It ended with a CV on turn 227 but that felt slow and clumsy to me because I made a number of foolish errors.

 

[Disgustipated]

As for ppl saying Pericles is better than Gorgo, I dunno about that, but even if you have the luckiest start of your life and get 3 CS suzerain early game (and somehow they survive) it's a measly +15% culture at most. You can compare it to Korea who just needs to slot governers equal to the number of her cities and the bonus cannot so easily be taken from her.

Well Korea will always be OP, even after the recent nerf. Though I haven't played her after the recent nerf. But I'm still amazed at how my above game turned out. Granted I don't normally build that many theater squares with other civ and that early, so maybe this could have been done with another civ? Still half prices theaters squares made it faster. My Pericles game is my fastest victory not including short runs just for achievements (like duel maps with only 2 civs and the like).

The problem with Pericles gameplay wise is that his cultural snowball is too late game

Mine happened mid game. I made the post about Kabul Suzerain only giving me about 3 culture (or something like that), shortly after that everything just took off. I had more Acropolis come on line, I started wonder building and got some awesome wonders. And everything just exploded (in a good way). I started racking up tourists very early, and the AI just couldn't get enough culture out to compete with my early tourism.

My big thing with Pericles vs. Gorgo is Gorgo has to keep warring to keep the culture going, where as Pericles only needs to do early warfare or if you have a good start, none at all.

Though I would say Gorgo could probably match my above Pericles game if I only did early warfare with her, and then just focus on Acropolis like I did with Pericles. That would have worked out well. Since it's the wonders and those art museums and archaeological museums that really pump out the victory, not the culture. Being constantly at war would be a trap for Gorgo, unless you are going for conquest victory. Better to switch modes and pump out the tourists if you want a fast victory.

As Victoria mentioned above, don't be afraid to go early warmonger with Pericles as I did my game. It got me closer to some city states, allowed me to liberate one for my first Suzerain and kept me close to 2 others so I could keep an eye on them.

I built Apadama of course, and got the Kilwa built as well. I used Diplomatic League as best I could. And yeah, I'm very happy with how that game turned out. That was sweet. I will admit that I was lucky to have access to those city states, and they are more dependent upon map than Gorgo.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

On that last play-through I used the +2 Great Writer card quite a bit early on. That helped me get several early writers, which gave me a huge culture boost.