Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Quintillus]

I feel like taking Irdento's definition of "DRM" as gospel is like taking the MPAA's definition of "DRM" without critical assessment. They're known for overly-rosy interpretations that emphasize the positives, and omit any negatives. I can also point to at least one historical inaccuracy in their quoted description - many DRM solutions have had nothing to do with "bind[ing] the game to a legitimate user account", but have been more traditional anti-copy or disc-check systems. And you could argue that is technically something else, but from a consumer standpoint, it's a form of DRM.

I'm also reminded of an interview of Jon Shafer, lead designer of Civ V, that I read recently (the interview is from 2019):

His passion for strategy games and history inspired a high school teacher to introduce a teenage Shafer to Sid Meier’s Civilization 2. "My first introduction to Civilization was with a pirated copy of Civ 2!" says Shafer. "I never did buy Civ 2 but in the end I think I gave something back to the series."

This is not an endorsement of pirating Civ2 (although if you're reading this, Firaxis/2K, please make it easier to buy a legitimate copy of Civ2 so Jon and others can go legit), but it's an interesting data point. Civ has always been a series with a long tail, unlike some games which see most of their sales in the first month. If Civ2 had had Denuvo DRM, would Jon Shafer have ever played Civilization? Would the series have lost its lead designer of a future iteration due to DRM?

Jon went on to develop Civ III and IV mods before being hired by Firaxis shortly after Civ IV's release, and I presume that he bought legitimate copies of Civ III and its expansions, as well as Civ IV. So it's interesting to think... 2K is likely seeing dollar signs in February 2025, and the decision likely will increase those, unless it turns off too many long-time fans. But is that the best thing to optimize for in a series with a long tail?

 

[bv98132454]

What probably sucks the most about this, is that this was probably a Take-Two mandate, and that Firaxis had to implement this against their own will. This is a friendly reminder that AAA corporations cannot ever be trusted, and anti-piracy software inherently represent a fundamental aspect of their evil

Oh I'm sure that this comes from 2K. However, unless it is a complete surprise that this ended up on their store page, I can't feel sorry for Firaxis here. This is why you have marketing departments and community managers.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Could you clarify why using anti-piracy software is fundamentally considered an evil act?

Anti-piracy measures always stand in direct opposition to media preservation. Also, validating companies like Denuvo through contracts like these, sets a dangerous precedent of further enforcing intellectual property as a concept, which I believe does more to hinder, than to protect, creative expression

 

[Zoeff]

Honestly feels like a massive overreaction.

 

[Uberfrog]

Honestly feels like a massive overreaction.

I think with these issues, it is not people being alarmist. This news is alarming, and an immediate backlash by fans is by far the most effective way to provoke a response, or ideally a reversal, from the publisher.

No player benefits from Denuvo being installed. So even if you don’t care either way, it shouldn’t upset you that other people might be angry about this.

 

[pokiehl]

No player benefits from Denuvo being installed.

I don't agree...Their preventing of piracy is in my interest because it helps ensure the game I want to play can continue to be supported and developed.

 

[Kwami]

Others have said that Humankind was going to have Denuvo but did not ship with it, so it isn't an example.

Yes, Humankind is an example. They included Denuvo in the final pre-release build that players could demo and it included a license that we had to accept. There was a lot of backlash. They removed Denuvo from the shipping game, saying that they couldn't get the game to perform well with Denuvo in place. There's no way to us to know if that's the real reason behind their decision to remove Denuvo, but at least they did it.

There are many 3rd party software examples used by games that create a physical file presence on your PC, so I don't think this is surprising or concerning. Anti-Tamper doesn't require you to be online, doesn't make your PC "phone home," etc.

Yes, it does make your PC phone home. That's how they authenticate the token. Without that, you can't play the game. It doesn't phone home every time you play, but it does so periodically. It also does so if any of your hardware changes. If Denuvo's servers go down, then you can no longer authenticate tokens. Even if Firaxis configures their game to only authenticate once after installation, you still won't be able to install the game on new computers without Denuvo's servers running.

Denuvo is NOT DRM and hasn't ever called itself that.

It absolutely is DRM. Even the Steam store page for the game calls it DRM:

"Incorporates 3rd-party DRM: Denuvo Anti-tamper
5 activations withing 24 hours machine activation limit"

I don't care what the Denuvo folks want to call their own software. They don't get to decide what is and isn't DRM. The rest of the world calls it DRM because that's obviously what it is.

Thus I think long-term, one of the concerns this raises is, will Denuvo be removed eventually? Firaxis's track record is not bad here; Civ4 is also available on GOG nowadays. But as others have mentioned, the problem is probably 2K here. They see an opportunity to maximize $70-$130 first-week sales, which does kind of make sense. For those of us with a twenty-year horizon, though, it's concerning.

The most recent Firaxis game with Denuvo, Midnight Suns, still uses Denuvo DRM. That game was released December 2, 2022. If Firaxis was just using Denuvo to prevent piracy in the days after release, then they could have removed it by now. They obviously haven't and I don't expect that they ever will.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Denuvo and linux release means there will 100% NOT be any kernel access, period.
It's probably gonna be used only for code obfuscation and has to be mentioned for legal purposes. (at least I hope that's why)
Which brings up the question, why include it anyway? It's gonna be broken pretty fast.
Anyway, I don't preorder digital media out of principle. Preordering was brought in times when there was a limited availability of physical media, and production had to be split in time for everyone to get it's hands on it, thus preorders had it first. Nowadays it's just used to reel suckers. (support product before I have it, sure is the way world works)
The Denuvo information, just postponed my plans to buy this product until it's removed. Had fair share of DRM products and had problems with every single one of them, Denuvo being the worst. (either It prevented me from gaming at all, or took unnecesery impact on memory usage)
Piracy talk been debunked so many times already....

 

[pokiehl]

Yes, it does make your PC phone home. That's how they authenticate the token. Without that, you can't play the game. It doesn't phone home every time you play, but it does so periodically.

As far as I can tell this isn't true. They specify that it checks online for initial installation. Anecdotal evidence following, but I have a friend who plays almost exclusively in offline mode and has never had a problem with any Denuvo game.

 

[Kwami]

As far as I can tell this isn't true. They specify that it checks online for initial installation. Anecdotal evidence following, but I have a friend who plays almost exclusively in offline mode and has never had a problem with any Denuvo game.

It's up to the game creator how often the tokens are authenticated. At a minimum, they're authenticated at installation and whenever hardware is changed.

 

[Kwami]

It's an example of consumer pressure making a publisher change their minds about using Denuvo. But it's not an example of the EULA of a game that has Denuvo anti-tampering. Unless you have a copy of that pre-release EULA that mentioned Denuvo at hand? In which case please share it, I'd love to see exactly what it says.

It had the same EULA language posted earlier in the thread. And like that other game, Humankind is a SEGA game. So, we still only have examples from SEGA, I think.

Here's the thread that I started three years ago on the Games2Gether (Amplitude) forum:

https://community.amplitude-studios.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/168-general/threads/41024-denuvo-drm

And here's the EULA language that I quoted at the time:

"This Product may beprotected by anti-cheat/hacking software and/or Denuvo Anti-Tamper Protection Technology (“Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology”). You hereby acknowledge and agree to the following regarding the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology:

the installation of the Product will cause the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology to be installed on your device;

the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may limit the number of installations of the Product;

the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may install on your device additional components required for copy protection;

during the installation and/or the first launch of the Product, an online connection may be required to activate the Product and the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology; and

certain files of the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Product is uninstalled from your device.

In no event shall SEGA be liable to you in connection with the components that may be installed on your device relating to the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology.

 

[Naokaukodem]

OK I will buy it only on PS5 then.

 

[Futumch]

2K often removes Denuvo ~6 months after release, so if you refuse to install it, you may be able to out-wait it.

Let's hope so, because it's not something I want to deal with. Denuvo onboard is a hard pass for me. Shame.

 

[Kev1916]

DRM doesn't only reduce the frame rate but also influences games' boot time are the hard facts with Denuvo launch

Civ 6 another reason to keep playing for a few years , Is not just the over the top prices, the blatant microtransactions including the fog of war tiles ROFL now you are getting punished for purchasing the game.

 

[kaspergm]

Firaxis should really clarify more on this for the people who don’t really understand anything about Denuvo like me.

Amen to this.

As someone who's not particularly into the workings of computer software and hardware, this thread has a lot of seemingly conflicting information.

 

[bv98132454]

Amen to this.

As someone who's not particularly into the workings of computer software and hardware, this thread has a lot of seemingly conflicting information.

Yep. Like I said earlier, this is something that needed a post/writeup and a video. There's no excuse for not knowing how these sorts of things are received.

 

[Kev1916]

From Steam it's defo there
Civ VII -
Incorporates 3rd-party DRM: Denuvo Anti-tamper
5 activations withing 24 hours machine activation limit.

It's bad news and to quote just a few source's

Denuvo has been a point of contention due to how it affects overall performance, as it hogs a lot of CPU power. You don’t have to look far to find stories of titles being review bombed or having a negative critical response from fans due to how it performs on PC, especially when it comes to framerates.

” anti-tamper third-party middleware” as the culprit. While Denuvo wasn’t mentioned, we do know that Tekken 7 came loaded with it, so the director was almost certainly talking about it specifically. Denuvo was eventually removed from Tekken 7

also Resident Evil

Since then, Capcom has not only issued a patch to address issues gamers were facing but eventually removed the offending DRM from RE: Village entirely. Other games to follow suit include Ghostwire: Tokyo, Doom Eternal, and Lies of P, which had only been out for a few months when Denuvo was removed.

The fact that so many studios and publishers do go ahead and remove it after the fact speaks volumes. A piece of software meant to protect a product that instead becomes known for how it affects game performance almost smacks of anti-consumer tactics,

 

[Uberfrog]

I don't agree...Their preventing of piracy is in my interest because it helps ensure the game I want to play can continue to be supported and developed.

I don’t actually think there is any evidence the use of Denuvo (which I remind you, Civ 6 never had) has ever improved sales. If the more vocal users here and on Reddit are as good as their word, it will actually harm sales (especially preorders).

Again, Humankind backtracked on Denuvo before launch. The publisher obviously decided it wasn’t worth the risk, and I don’t think the decision harmed the game’s sales one bit.

 

[pokiehl]

I don’t actually think there is any evidence the use of Denuvo (which I remind you, Civ 6 never had) improved sales.

Denuvo Anti-Tamper costs a lot of money to use. If they didn't do the math and figure it'd make them money, they wouldn't use it.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Incorporates 3rd-party DRM: Denuvo Anti-tamper
5 activations withing 24 hours machine activation limit.

Just confirming, this is what a Steam page of CIV VII says.
Yeah, I will stay away from this product as far as possible.

Again, Humankind backtracked on Denuvo before launch. The publisher obviously decided it wasn’t worth the risk, and I don’t think the decision harmed the game’s sales one bit.

One of the reasons I bought Humankind and everything that was realeased for It, including music dlc's, as a sign of support for NO-DRM.

EDIT:
I would like to add that everyone, that has any plans on changing their hardware more than five times from the first launch of the game, will have a bad time.
Even more bizarre, if I would decide to change compatibility module on linux more than five times I won't be able to play this game any more - had this issue before.
Real shame...