of course they don't, but that hasn't really anything to do with marriage. And it doesn't really have to do anything with deciding your plans together....
Civil Unions
- Thread starter History_Buff
- Start date
Atheists could probably find someone willing to perform a marriage ceremony. Heck, if my parents could get a rabbi and a priest to get together and do a joint ceremony, I'm sure atheists could find someone willing to perform a ceremony.
My problem is with people defining marriage as a religious institution. It isn't.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
It is to a whole lot of people. Is their definition any less important than yours?
I am not advocating that people can't have religious marriages.
Yes. Why should we give a self-centered definition equal importance to the correct definition?
Ecofarm
Deity
Self centered definitions?? Try 97% of Europe and 99.9% of the US. And 100% of the rest of the world - by legal definition. THAT must surely be the self centered definition! Could it POSSIBLY be that the .00000000000001% of the population of the world who think otherwise are self-centered!?
Considering the fact that the amount of the nonreligious in Europe is surely higher than 3%, how the hell is it that high?
By legal definition, none in Europe or the U.S. consider marriage a religious institution.
Ecofarm
Deity
The topic is not CHURCH marriages, but SAME-SEX marriages. The legal definition STANDS. Those who define same-sex marriage as possible within the context of the word (or legal definition) are less than 1% of the population of the world. Who is self-centered?
Are you interested in changing the democratically elected lawful definition of words? Or are you interested in equal rights? People should promote civil unions in the name of quality and work to on legal semantics regarding connotations and religious rhetoric later.
The self-centered language that you jumped on was referring to marriage being defined exclusively as a religious institution.
Even if you want to argue the same sex marriage definition (which I was not referring to when I used the term self-centered), the percentage willing to vote to legalize gay marriage in the U.S. and Europe is much higher than the percentages you are posting.
Ecofarm
Deity
Oh really? Why then is it legal in only 2/20 of the EU and 1/50 of the US States? Not to mention the other 5billion people who mostly see homosexuality not as marriage, but punishable by death.
Source on homosexual unions being the most popular (and thus least self-centered) definition of marriage?
Source on homosexual unions being the most popular (and thus least self-centered) definition of marriage?
Once it becomes a legal term, you can't always use the societal definition of "marriage" but have to supply a legal definition which may vary.
What percent is 2 of 20? What percent is one of fifty? What percentages did you give?
That doesn't even take into consideration the percentage of individual voters in a typical referendum.
And no one here has claimed that homosexual marriage is the popular definiton of marriage.
Ecofarm
Deity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union
That's 2/20 EU that consider same-sex unions to be "marriage".
1 state in the US currently defines same-sex unions as "marriage".
Many US and all EU states allow civil unions.
The rest of the world, same sex = death, not marriage.
What definition of marriage is self-centered? I'd say the one that includes same-sex matrimony.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Why bother though? The term "Civil Union" would be a legal term, whereas most people would refer to their union as "marriage". Sure, I can see some people only getting married through the state, without any ceremony at all, but they would adopt "married" as well. Who would use the term "civil union", but lawyers?
MobBoss said:
Why can't it be a religious ceremony for those who want it, and a secular ceremony for those who don't?
My original proposition was that those who view marriage as strictly a religious institution are self-centered - I made no comment one way or another about gay marriage being self-centered - that is your own creation from the haystack. Find me one U.S. state or one EU country who's legal definition restricts marriage to only religious people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union
That's 2/20 EU.
1 state in the US allows same-sex marriages.
Many US and all EU states allow civil unions.
The rest of the world = death, not marriage.
Who's definition of marriage (to include same-sex) is self-centered?
Precisely!!!!
The "why bother" part is because of so many people saying (rightly or wrongly) that marriage cannot encompass same-sex unions, because it is fundamentally Christian and the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, and they will not allow government to endorse something which is anti-Christian.
So if the term "marriage" is the sticking point, remove it from the one place that requires a hard-and-fast definition. Let individuals (or churches) decide on their own definition, because there's no way those definitions will ever be compatible across a neighborhood, much less a state or a country.
Ecofarm
Deity
Defeat your haystack? C'mon. *Tilts at windmill and scores critical hit*
Legal definition is "man and woman" (for 99% of the world). Any self-centered definitions otherwise fail to acknowledge the religious connotations involved in the realization of such a fact.
I'm still waiting for a source providing evidence of a religion pre-unitarian church (this century) advocating same-sex marriage. Where do you think the qualifications of the term, as used today by a vast majority of the population, come from? Karl Marx?
[sarcasm]
I have an idea... let's let .001% of world population decide the definition of a word! Long live fascism!
[/sarcasm]
Isn't still wrongful government endorsement (from the Joe and Jane Fundie perspective) if all you are really doing is calling it a different name?Precisely!!!!
The "why bother" part is because of so many people saying (rightly or wrongly) that marriage cannot encompass same-sex unions, because it is fundamentally Christian and the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, and they will not allow government to endorse something which is anti-Christian.
So if the term "marriage" is the sticking point, remove it from the one place that requires a hard-and-fast definition. Let individuals (or churches) decide on their own definition, because there's no way those definitions will ever be compatible across a neighborhood, much less a state or a country.
