Civilization 5 Rants Thread

[Hammer Rabbi]

some games are so illogically obstinate i have to rage quit. im playing as japan on immortal/pangea/standard. ive taken greece's capital. only sweden dislikes me and is next on my list, directly south of me but a slog thru hills and jungle to get there. i'll need to take a settler with me to upgrade a couple units. theres a unique lux in a good spot just for that.

ive met china and india and only sweden is at war w/anyone, china before i dow'd him. he is also point leader having taken one of china's cities and building a couple wonders. I go to war with Sweden, Sigtuna specifically. It has nice resources and is close to cap. i have 8 comp bows and a spearman with a horse being built. He has warriors, spears and archers. China would be next after him.

I settled that city and upgraded but he now has swords. its okay, my bows take them out and right on the turn my spearman was going to take Sigtuna he gets GW. That means my spearman stopped one tile shy and got killed by the city attack plus sword during their turn. So now I had to wait 2 more turns while my horse gets down there. I do take it though. Heal and onto the cap. I also became DoF with India. But now he has GW and I need to regroup. I get all my guys in place but terrain doesnt let me see into his lands (hills with jungle and forest). I have to take a turn to move into position just get to the edge of GW without being in his borders. And when I do, what do I see? 8 Indian units in his territory from OB. They just sit there for 7 or 8 turns in a row just kind of moving around not going anywhere. WHY?!?! I cant move my guys in and take any of his units and Im losing turns like crazy. He then decides to move them out of the way and Sweden brings in a mob of Pikes and Swords and my (now) 12 compbows cant take out more than 1 unit a turn due to terrain and GW.

I can live with him getting GW and my spear getting flummoxed by it but WHY WAS INDIA CAMPING UNITS IN HIS TERRITORY WITHOUT BEING FRIENDS AND BEING DoF WITH ME?!?! There was plenty of room for his units (elephants and archers) to go where they please. We were DoF before I got to Stockholm and now I can't break that (Dow him) to clear his units without ruining every future trade deal or just let Sweden keep his capital, who btw was offering no peace deals other than all my gold an his city back.

*rant over but screw that game and such stupid nonsense*

 

[rocketsfan05]

Got tag teamed by Askia and Washington (I bordered both). Both declared war on me about ten turns in, and never made peace. I was overran.

 

[Bei1052]

I know I'm late here, but 1UPT doesn't bother me.

The fact that techs are researched abnormally fast while units/building are built abnormally slow (with no way to rush the production outside of buying them for full price) bothers me a hell of a lot more.

 

[Funky]

I know I'm late here, but 1UPT doesn't bother me.

The fact that techs are researched abnormally fast while units/building are built abnormally slow (with no way to rush the production outside of buying them for full price) bothers me a hell of a lot more.

You do realize though that both fast teching and long building times are both a direct result of 1UPT?

 

[Naokaukodem]

You do realize though that both fast teching and long building times are both a direct result of 1UPT?

I know that 1UPT makes buildings long to not clutter the map too much, but for the fast teching ???

Also he says that he could support shorter building time with 1UPT I think.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I know I'm late here, but 1UPT doesn't bother me.

The fact that techs are researched abnormally fast while units/building are built abnormally slow (with no way to rush the production outside of buying them for full price) bothers me a hell of a lot more.

You can't have 1UPT, slower tech rate and faster build rates, because the latter two are simply incompatible with 1UPT. The issue is extreme gridlock. Slow down the tech rate and the game will last longer and thus more units will be built. Increase the build rate and more units will be built. All Civ V maps are too small as it is for 1UPT to work well. Both slowing tech rate and increasing build rate will increase the number of units on the map by 5-10 times or more. This will result in extreme gridlock. There will be so many enemy units that it will be very hard to fight one's way to an enemy city. In fact the AI may be able to build units as fast as you can destroy them. The game won't be much fun, if one spends too much time trying to avoid gridlock and being blocked from capturing a city.

1UPT works well with a small fixed number of units on a map as in Panzer General II. It just doesn't work on the scale of civilizations that produce units fast and tech rather slowly.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[whyidie]

You can't have 1UPT, slower tech rate and faster build rates, because the latter two are simply incompatible with 1UPT.

While I agree that gridlock is the challenge with current game, I find it hard to believe that 1upt cannot be made to work.

All Civ V maps are too small as it is for 1UPT to work well.

Make them bigger.

In fact the AI may be able to build units as fast as you can destroy them.

Change AI production bonuses. Change AI flavors. Give them other things to build other than units....and cities. Surely there must be a way to balance it.

There are mods today that decrease pace of science while not impacting build times. Haven't tried them myself so I can't say if gridlock is the norm. Will be one of the first mods I try once the game stabilizes.

 

[rschissler]

While I agree that gridlock is the challenge with current game, I find it hard to believe that 1upt cannot be made to work.




Make them bigger.



Change AI production bonuses. Change AI flavors. Give them other things to build other than units....and cities. Surely there must be a way to balance it.

There are mods today that decrease pace of science while not impacting build times. Haven't tried them myself so I can't say if gridlock is the norm. Will be one of the first mods I try once the game stabilizes.

"Make them bigger (maps)": That means longer waits or crashes between turns.

"Change AI production bonuses": That means lowering the difficulty, since that is the basis of difficulty levels.

"Give them other things to build": Like buildings? Then they will have more gold or production to buy or build more units faster.

 

[whyidie]

"Make them bigger (maps)": That means longer waits or crashes between turns.

Bigger maps and more units would have a definite impact on turn times in Civ5. But this is not an inherent limitation of 1upt.

"Change AI production bonuses": That means lowering the difficulty, since that is the basis of difficulty levels.

So the question becomes what else can be done to improve AI performance, apart from huge troop advantages ?

Most definitely practical challenges/limitations to the way the game is implemented today. Likely unfixable in this version. But not problems that are inherent to 1upt.

 

[Funky]

@whyidle:

In a perfect world, in which processing power of computers as well as the algorithms which constitute AI are both so good that they don't pose any limitations whatsoever, you are right, 1UPT could work. Though even then problems of scale and the question whether 1UPT suits a game like Civ would remain very prevalent.
But we don't live in a perfect world, we have to deal with what lies within the boundaries of reality. So while in an abstract theoretical sense 1UPT is possible (and has been made to work other games, as long as they were restricted in other areas), in the concrete reality of Civ the limitations caused by 1UPT are indeed very much inherent to the system.

Claiming that all we need are larger maps and a better AI for 1UPT to work is kind of like saying that all we need to solve the problems of energy supplies is to have more oil. Sounds simple, but neglects the circumstances we live in.

 

[salty mud]

1UPT is a major issue, but the biggest for me is certainly the global happiness.

I have to wonder what they were thinking when they were adding this mechanic to the game. All it serves to do is limit your expansion in a hamfisted, poorly handled way. Just because you placed another city, or one city grows too large, is absolutely no cause or reason for your entire empire to crumble and stop what it's doing. It reeks of artificial difficulty. Civ IV's city based system is much, much better. One unhappy city does not stop the rest from growing fine.

 

[GreekAnalyzer]

1UPT is a major issue, but the biggest for me is certainly the global happiness.

I have to wonder what they were thinking when they were adding this mechanic to the game. All it serves to do is limit your expansion in a hamfisted, poorly handled way. Just because you placed another city, or one city grows too large, is absolutely no cause or reason for your entire empire to crumble and stop what it's doing. It reeks of artificial difficulty. Civ IV's city based system is much, much better. One unhappy city does not stop the rest from growing fine.

Amen!
This is my biggest complaint (of many) about Civ 5.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Change AI production bonuses. Change AI flavors. Give them other things to build other than units....and cities. Surely there must be a way to balance it.

There isn't, 1UPT just doesn't work with a game like Civ.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Amen!
This is my biggest complaint (of many) about Civ 5.

+1. Even if i already saw people denying it as if I were the only one talking about it several times.

 

[Delodax]

Bigger maps and more units would have a definite impact on turn times in Civ5. But this is not an inherent limitation of 1upt.



So the question becomes what else can be done to improve AI performance, apart from huge troop advantages ?

Most definitely practical challenges/limitations to the way the game is implemented today. Likely unfixable in this version. But not problems that are inherent to 1upt.

Couldn't Firaxis add a system inspired by Civ Rev (merging three units to create a greater unit) or the board game (research increases stacking limit)? I think that could add a lot to the game.

 

[pilot00]

"Make them bigger (maps)": That means longer waits or crashes between turns.

Thats a matter of code and engine optimization and THEN hardware dependency. Most of the crushes the games has is a matter of bugs.

Amen!
This is my biggest complaint (of many) about Civ 5.

Mine as well and the absence of the damnable slider.

+1. Even if i already saw people denying it as if I were the only one talking about it several times.

Don't worry people will defend anything

 

[PreLynMax]

Mine as well and the absence of the damnable slider.

I thought I was the only one that hated that unholy slider.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I thought I was the only one that hated that unholy slider.

The point is that removing the slider also removes player control over the game. It is also acknowledged that the slider was a rather course control of what commerce in Civ IV was used for. I never understood why one should be limited to 10% increments; probably a user interface limitation. In Civ V the concept of Commerce has been abstracted away; it has been replaced by Wealth and Research with no direct conversion between the two possible.

In Civ IV BtS, the conversion of Commerce into Espionage is a major way of fueling the espionage system which can obviate the need for much research, military build up, diplomacy and even culture. The Civ V espionage system is pathetic compared to what is available in Civ IV.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Civking5]

The point is that removing the slider also removes player control over the game. It is also acknowledged that the slider was a rather course control of what commerce in Civ IV was used for. I never understood why one should be limited to 10% increments; probably a user interface limitation. In Civ V the concept of Commerce has been abstracted away; it has been replaced by Wealth and Research with no direct conversion between the two possible.

In Civ IV BtS, the conversion of Commerce into Espionage is a major way of fueling the espionage system which can obviate the need for much research, military build up, diplomacy and even culture. The Civ V espionage system is pathetic compared to what is available in Civ IV.

Sun Tzu Wu

speaking of pathetic espionage system, I cannot never forget the painful frustrating experience that i always had with espionage system in CIV4. Near the end game, it was out of control. Every turn, mines and improvements sabotaged everywhere, one city water supply poisoned, another was hit by 10 unhappiness, and it was happening every freaking turn. the funny thing was, in some cases i was not even at war!

so these days, when i play civ4, i totally turn off espionage to avoid all that crazy headache.

and my friend, that was a broken pathetic system. so please don't come here , pretend to be a know all,and defend a broken mechanism.

 

[Naokaukodem]

speaking of pathetic espionage system, I cannot never forget the painful frustrating experience that i always had with espionage system in CIV4. Near the end game, it was out of control. Every turn, mines and improvements sabotaged everywhere, one city water supply poisoned, another was hit by 10 happiness, and it was happening every freaking turn. the funny thing was, in some cases i was not even at war!

so these days, when i play civ4, i totally turn off espionage to avoid all that crazy headache.

and my friend, that was a broken pathetic system. so please don't come here , pretend to be a know all,and defend a broken mechanism.

+1. I turned it off for the same reasons. And it was not only in the end game.