Civilization elimination thread

[PhilBowles]

Korea's 12 specialists come at a cost of 24 per turn. Babylon's Academies can be planted on producing tiles. For argument sake, let's assume that Babylon has 3 Academies (1 free at writing, 1 from Liberty, 1 from natural growth).

Babylon works those three tiles and generates 24 , 6 , and 3 (Academies built next to a river which is where I generally settle them) from only 3 tiles! Babylon is free to run specialists as well. Korea cannot generate that much from 3 with their UA. Sure with enough food you can run specialists, but Babylon can also run specialists and essentially gets this research boost for free and much earlier in the game.

It's not free. Babylon's spamming Academies everywhere and as a result has fewer farms and mines - it doesn't produce enough food to support many specialists or rapidly grow while farming those 2 food, 8 beaker tiles, and it doesn't have the production to produce more than the essential specialist buildings for its science rush. Its big boosts from its academies only work so long as it has enough citizens to work those academies as well as to act as the specialists who churn them out, and on top of that you need to be able to work at least some farms and mines while keeping your academies staffed. And if, as in your above example, Babylon has gone Liberty - a policy tree that's not a good fit for it for anything other than the free GS (EDIT: And the building production boost) - it doesn't have Tradition growth bonuses to help. All of which is why it has been repeatedly pointed out that Babylon is not a flexible civ.

Korea doesn't need to produce its boost from 3 citizens because it has the ability to support many more than Babylon can. And it too can go Liberty if it wants to, giving it a 10-pt academy of its own.

Don't forget that Babylon has likely reached education 10-20 turns earlier,

As an earlier poster mentioned, you're neglecting the free science from science buildings boost. Korea saves 5-8 turns from a library, I presume the same again from National College (and I'm still not clear on whether the Oracle counts as a "science Wonder"). Babylon might reach Education 5 turns earlier, but probably not much more than that unless the Korean NC is late.

 

[Dogmouth]

I missed that, despite my Inca game being post-G&K, but from recollection I haven't downvoted the Inca, and if I have it was just because I felt they were too far ahead of the pack, not because of the mistake on terrace farms. I don't think it's factored into anyone else's cases.

I think it may have factored into one of Mesix's Incan downvotes. If not, I generally think that if you and Mesix missed it, many other players must have missed it as well, as both of you seem to be very experienced.

 

[PhilBowles]

I think it may have factored into one of Mesix's Incan downvotes. If not, I generally think that if you and Mesix missed it, many other players must have missed it as well, as both of you seem to be very experienced.

Experienced with the game, but not necessarily with the Inca - I've played them once, Mesix appears only to play Babylon except when experimenting with other civs to establish that they aren't as strong as Babylon...

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Arabia 5
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 25
Korea 28
Maya 8
Persia 3

i fully expected to see babylon off the list today. im pleased they made it back to double digits, haha.

as strong as Inca is, i probably play them the least on this list. it isnt for any reason other than im still playing other civs more. since GnK came out im still learning that vanilla civs were changed a bit. i played incans and got them out of my system and moved on. i will play them more because trrace farms look really cool.

 

[DGDobrev]

I am getting really hooked up to this Babylon vs. Korea science thing. I am considering making a hotseat Deity duel map, testing everything that I read and learned from the discussions in this thread. There will be no wars, no trading, no RA's, no spying, no barbs, no ruins and no CS bonuses (only if someone gets a bonus from their own development), and both capitals will settle next to a mountain. Development will follow the best strategies for every civ:

- Korea will play 4-city, every city put on a food location, (so that the specialists don't hinder the growth), with GL for tech boost and free tech. Korea will get the Messenger of the Gods pantheon too. As GP go, every city will sport specialists who will be reassigned in order to allow for a GS to spawn rather than GA or GM in the early game. The opening will be Liberty - Tradition one for the extra worker and extra Settler.
- Babylon will play OCC till NC, NOT getting the GL, but getting the Oracle for the +1 GS point. Babylon will get the Desert pantheon if lots of desert around or Fertility rites. Opening will be full Tradition with an attempt at a Rationalism jump. Extra cities will be added if need be.

As far as the wonders go, I will try to get key wonders with both - Pisa, PT, etc. In the end, it will all come to efficiency. I will also follow the same tech path - fastest jump to Renaissance, and then whatever drives their boat - Korea may get some Happiness wonders (like Chichen Itza, Notre Dame, etc.) to cope with the big unhappiness hit from 4 expanding cities, while Babylon may get other ones to boost other areas.

I still find it hard to determine the additional factors, cause Babylon will beat Korea to almost every early wonder, but it may not be the best idea to build it. The problem is that there are so many things to factor in, and one of the civs may be in a better starting position than the other... In any case, I might as well try it. It will make for a fun diversion.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

things i need to do in civ 5: play a lot more dom vics. play a lot more korea (10 full standard games isnt enough to really know their strengths compared to the amount of babylon played). play a handful of civs at least once (i think i only have 5 left for the steam achievements even though ive played them, just not to a victory). learn to be as good on immortal as i am on emperor and eventually likewise on deity. play some HoF games. play some more multiplayer.

as ive got about 850 hours in civ so far, i see that as at least another 800 hours to go before i really tire of the game and thats only if i find mulitplayer less interesting or some patch comes along and ruins things or doesnt fix enough things.

 

[PhilBowles]

I am getting really hooked up to this Babylon vs. Korea science thing. I am considering making a hotseat Deity duel map, testing everything that I read and learned from the discussions in this thread. There will be no wars, no trading, no RA's, no spying, no barbs and no CS bonuses (only if someone gets a bonus from their own development), and both capitals will settle next to a mountain. Development will follow the best strategies for every civ:

It's a good idea that I'm keen to try, but be aware that it's still not quite a strict comparison because of Wonders, and indeed religious beliefs - only one civ can get The Oracle, Porcelain Tower or Hanging Gardens, for example.

- Korea will play 4-city, every city put on a food location, (so that the specialists don't hinder the growth),

Good plan, but also be aware that this won't be a typical single-player strategy. I've tried this, and got overrun by Germany because I had no production or gold cities to get me units fast.

with GL for tech boost and free tech. Korea will get the Messenger of the Gods pantheon too. As GP go, every city will sport specialists who will be reassigned in order to allow for a GS to spawn rather than GA or GM in the early game. The opening will be Liberty - Tradition one for the extra worker and extra Settler.

I'm planning on an atypical experiment with Korea, where I'll go Liberty rather than Tradition - Liberty mainly for the production boost to buildings (which helps gets those specialists out sooner) and the GS Academy. But also both Settler and Worker are advantageous for Korea - faster Worker = better food production earlier to support more specialists. I'll go full Liberty without dabbling in Tradition so that I can then rush to Rationalism and Freedom.

As far as the wonders go, I will try to get key wonders with both - Pisa, PT, etc. In the end, it will all come to efficiency. I will also follow the same tech path - fastest jump to Renaissance

That will serve Babylon better than Korea, as it may require neglecting Markets and Workshops until quite late.

and then whatever drives their boat - Korea may get some Happiness wonders (like Chichen Itza, Notre Dame, etc.) to cope with the big unhappiness hit from 4 expanding cities, while Babylon may get other ones to boost other areas.

Not having Monarchy will hurt Korea, for sure, but bear in mind that you'll want Cathedrals anyway, and perhaps if playing that way you might want a happiness-boosting religious belief.

I still find it hard to determine the additional factors, cause Babylon will beat Korea to almost every early wonder, but it may not be the best idea to build it.

Recall what I said about Babylonian production - it will beat Korea to the techs, but it may not beat them to actually completing the Wonder, particularly without Tradition. This is another limitation of confining Korea exclusively to food cities - they won't have the production either in that scenario.

 

[Buccaneer]

Arabia 6
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 25
Korea 28
Maya 6
Persia 3

I won't be around much later so I'll put in my daily vote now before I forget. Feebly trying to save the Camels and their gold, and trying to get the wide civ out of the game.

 

[DGDobrev]

You have a point, but unless there is a custom created map that puts both civs under the same starting condition, there's not much we can do now...

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Arabia 6
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 23
Korea 28
Maya 6
Persia 3

I mistakenly didnt subtract 2 when i downvoted them. just correcting that.

 

[Dogmouth]

things i need to do in civ 5: play a lot more dom vics. play a lot more korea (10 full standard games isnt enough to really know their strengths compared to the amount of babylon played). play a handful of civs at least once (i think i only have 5 left for the steam achievements even though ive played them, just not to a victory). learn to be as good on immortal as i am on emperor and eventually likewise on deity. play some HoF games. play some more multiplayer.

as ive got about 850 hours in civ so far, i see that as at least another 800 hours to go before i really tire of the game and thats only if i find mulitplayer less interesting or some patch comes along and ruins things or doesnt fix enough things.

I need to do the opposite: non-dom victories. 5 of my last 5 wins were dom. My only other victories were quasi-doms where I murdered my rivials and left one or several capitals solely so that I could claim another type of victory. I guess I'm hooked on war. This must be why I love the production civs (Iroquois, Inca, and to a lesser degree, Russia) China, and Songhai so much. Nonetheless, even I find the pure warmonger civs dull.

edit: I forgot to add the Aztecs and Ottomans, both of which I also like more than other players.

 

[truenarnian]

Arabia 6
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 24
Korea 28
Maya 6
Persia 2 [it should have been at 4 but reposters forgot a vote, and I subtract 2)

I have to upvote INCA because they are the one civ left that I truly love (all the other favorites were voted out long ago).

Downvote PERSIA because of all the civs left, I find them the most mind-numbingly dull.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

You have a point, but unless there is a custom created map that puts both civs under the same starting condition, there's not much we can do now...

im actually going to work on one. ive learned how to do that in worldbuilder, its just a little tedious. ill try and start a new thread in GnK with starts on the same tile with all things being equal (resources, opponents, CSs, game settings). to keep with mesix's idea i will make a save each for Bab, Korea, and Maya. and ill leave it up to others to do the testing.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

correcting for persia's downvote.

Arabia 6
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 24
Korea 28
Maya 6
Persia 1

 

[Crafty Bison]

Erm I'm confused.... We sure the current score is right? Going from pensivepeppers on the previous page, so far I have it as:

Arabia 6
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 22
Korea 27
Maya 6
Persia 2

Is this now right?

 

[duhu]

Arabia 4
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 22
Korea 27
Maya 6
Persia 3

Arabia just gets a few extra gold, and I still love Persia's golden age bonuses.

 

[woodshadows]

In the babylon vs korea debate what i think it boils down to is two civs which are defense and science oriented. babylon's science and defensive uu/ub come early in the game, koreas science and defensive uu's come later in the game. for myself i'd rather have those bonuses earlier than later, getting ahead in this game is all about the snowball effect.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Erm I'm confused.... We sure the current score is right? Going from pensivepeppers on the previous page, so far I have it as:

Arabia 6
Babylon 13
China 8
Inca 22
Korea 27
Maya 6
Persia 2

Is this now right?

good catch. i was going off the 2 votes after pensivepeppers that missed his votes/corrections. thanks.

 

[kamikazees]

Arabia 2 (-2)
Babylon 13
China 9 (+1)
Inca 22
Korea 27
Maya 6
Persia 3

Both Persia and Arabia should go, but I'll ding Arabia because their horse archer upgrades into a melee unit, which is less useful.

China is great early game, and it's UU lasts until you aren't using land ranged units much more. It's UA is great all the time.

 

[Tabarnak]

Arabia 2
Babylon 13
China 9
Inca 22
Korea 25
Maya 6
Persia 4

I don't like Korea. Give me golden ages and +1 move and i will conquer who i want when i want with Persia.