[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

I agree that Grace O'Malley/Granuaile was a fascinating woman (I attempted to write a paper on her in college comparing her to Cleopatra; the analogies were fascinating but it was kind of turning into just pointing out coincidences so I had to abandon it), but I'm not sure she's who I'd choose to lead Ireland. I'd build Ireland as a culture/faith civ, and a pirate queen doesn't really fit into that. I'd also want to emphasize Early Medieval Ireland, which would put Granuaile awfully late. IMO Brian Boru is the best choice. Niall of the Nine Hostages is in the Tomyris/Dido category of semi-mythical but just historical enough to maybe squeeze in. Not every civ needs a female ruler, and I'm not sure Ireland would be my top pick for it--but then again, neither would France yet here we are.

Thanks. I don't know as much about Near East cities as you, so Nineveh was the only one I could think of (because of Ashurbanipal's library) since I don't expect both to get in the game.

I associate the "science from Great Works of Writing" with cuneiform, and Ebla and Mari were other Eastern Semitic cities associated with early writing. (Eblaite used to be considered a dialect of Akkadian but is now considered a sister language.) The Eblaite kingdom was regionally important but is unlikely to ever become a civ, and Mari was a waypoint between Ebla and Sumer/Babylon. I'd lean towards Ebla over Mari because, if an Assyrian civilization were later made, Mari ought to be on its city list. (If it weren't already on Phoenicia's city list, I would have proposed Ugarit. IMO it should have been a city-state in the first place; Ugarit was halfway between Phoenicia's and the Hittites' spheres of influence, and they were Amorites, not Phoenicians. There were plenty of authentically Phoenician cities they could have chosen instead.)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Arenal is mostly associated with the volcano, which makes most sense as either a Natural Wonder or - like Krakatoa - just an available name for a volcano (not all site names are localised to civs). Does Costa Rica particularly demand representation as a cultural powerhouse? Since things like Naturalists use faith and Costa Rica is notable for touristed national parks, it could conceivably be faith-related if represented at all.

My enduring memory of San Jose is of it having a daily Beatles Hour on radio at least as late as the early 2000s, still having a footwear chain called Penny Lane a decade later, and a tour guide discussing his favourite Beatle with my mother. It seems much more a recipient than a source of cultural trends.

Costa Rica definitely should be culture/faith with bonuses in benefitting your national parks (maybe giving science? more tourism for national parks in jungles?)—either as a city state like Arenal (which is a tourist town at the base of the volcano) or Tamarindo (the most famous beach tourist town in the country), if not San Jose, it’s capital. A culture or faith focused Costa Rica civ or city state is a must imo

I agree that Grace O'Malley/Granuaile was a fascinating woman (I attempted to write a paper on her in college comparing her to Cleopatra; the analogies were fascinating but it was kind of turning into just pointing out coincidences so I had to abandon it), but I'm not sure she's who I'd choose to lead Ireland. I'd build Ireland as a culture/faith civ, and a pirate queen doesn't really fit into that. I'd also want to emphasize Early Medieval Ireland, which would put Granuaile awfully late. IMO Brian Boru is the best choice. Niall of the Nine Hostages is in the Tomyris/Dido category of semi-mythical but just historical enough to maybe squeeze in. Not every civ needs a female ruler, and I'm not sure Ireland would be my top pick for it--but then again, neither would France yet here we are.


I associate the "science from Great Works of Writing" with cuneiform, and Ebla and Mari were other Eastern Semitic cities associated with early writing. (Eblaite used to be considered a dialect of Akkadian but is now considered a sister language.) The Eblaite kingdom was regionally important but is unlikely to ever become a civ, and Mari was a waypoint between Ebla and Sumer/Babylon. I'd lean towards Ebla over Mari because, if an Assyrian civilization were later made, Mari ought to be on its city list. (If it weren't already on Phoenicia's city list, I would have proposed Ugarit. IMO it should have been a city-state in the first place; Ugarit was halfway between Phoenicia's and the Hittites' spheres of influence, and they were Amorites, not Phoenicians. There were plenty of authentically Phoenician cities they could have chosen instead.)

you should really make a mod fixing city lists in your image, lmao. I would download it.

 

[Krajzen]

Mari and Ebla on Assyrian city list? Shouldnt they rather be part of separate Syrian/Aramaic civilization?
In fact it has slightly annoyed me how Syria is always missed as a great ancient civilization. It has cities as ancient as those in Iraq and Egypt. It also had its own strong kingdoms, unfortunately ancient Syrians didn't manage to create massive, hegemonic empire unlike Egypt, Iraq (Mesopotamia) or Anatolia (Hittites) so it is always missing everywhere.
The name "Syria" is also problematic itself, as it is a corruption and confusion of "Assyria" (gee how surprising) so I'd prefer if they were called Aramaics, as its cultural core area sort of fits modern boundaries of Syria. You can even make Zenobia of Palmyra leader of this civilization.

City list: Aleppo, Damascus (both are among few top candidates for some of the oldest cities in the world btw), Homs, Palmyra, Mari, Ebla, Qatna, Ugarit and others (those eight are just top AAA native cities of Syria which have incredibly detailed history behind then, comparable with Mesopotamian cities)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean, Tomyris' LUA is "Killer of Cyrus" and they were in before Cyrus was even in the game.

True, I just don't necessarily see the point of we have to include Babylon as a Civ because of Cyrus' ability, when there would be better reasons like they've been in since Civ 1.

 

[Mudokon Pop]

Cartimandua. If we're going to have a Briton civ, let her lead it instead of the ill-starred Boudicca.

With Scotland & England already included - I think Britain has enough representation. But yes, a fascinating figure - one I don't know much about so I forgot about her.

Grace O'Malley would be a very interesting leader (a friend of mine literally wrote the book on Pirate Women, and O'Malley is one of my favorite chapters there) but IF Ireland were to get in, it probably wouldn't have a Piracy flavor to it.

I think 'pirate' was a slur against O'Malley's actions - her idea that taxes on Irish trade/property should be paid in Ireland has some merit after all. She was a legitimate noble - wether her actions amount to piracy or a claim to her right to tax trade in her kingdom are in the eye of the beholder.

Queen Medb is more legendary than Gilgamesh, Dido or Kupe are, not so much a part of a mythological past as an eternal deity whom kings would ceremonially "marry" to obtain their divine right.

Kings certainly married earth goddesses - but Queen Medb is depicted as a figure alive and well in Irish legends - ruling her kingdom and waging war against other Irish kings so I do think she was viewed as 'part of the past' in the eyes of the Gaels. If Medb was such an earth goddess - you'd expect other Celtic cultures would have a clear linguistic cognate to Medb - a lot of Celtic deities have similar names in different languages, yet I've never seen any Goddess with a name similar to Medb in other Celtic cultures - not even the Gaels in Scotland. It's possibe that Medb is a regional/local goddess or was possibly a real queen who may have been seen as a personification of a deity.

Brian Boru is IMO the best leader idea I've yet heard for Ireland, especially since Medieval era is probably the most fruitful for an Irish civ.

Brian Boru would be the best choice indeed.

 

[Zaarin]

you should really make a mod fixing city lists in your image, lmao. I would download it.

I should. Maybe I will at some point.

Mari and Ebla on Assyrian city list? Shouldnt they rather be part of separate Syrian/Aramaic civilization?

I'd dearly, dearly love to see an Aramaic civilization, ideally led by Zenobia. I'm just not banking on it. Mari was an important city in Assyria after its conquest so if Assyria gets in, I'd expect to see Mari on their city list.

 

[Navelgazer]

True, I just don't necessarily see the point of we have to include Babylon as a Civ because of Cyrus' ability, when there would be better reasons like they've been in since Civ 1.

To be clear, I was 100% agreeing with you there.

As for how Babylon will be designed (I think it's one of the biggest shoe-in inclusions for New Frontier), well, I hated the Civ5 Babylon design, which is like Civ6 Korea but even more passive. Thankfully, Civ6 has been good about not going back to the well for their designs (Norway is pretty similar to Denmark, and Zulu has the same Uniques, but in general...) I know that Firaxis loves to focus on Science with Babylon, but I think it'd be cool to focus on Administration. Maybe a CUA where Governors take less or no time to be established in cities. Also, Hammurabi (who is the obvious choice for leader but obvious for a reason) was able to make Babylon such a powerhouse in part because he made Marduk the central diety in the region over Enlil. I don't know how best to represent this, but I'm picturing an LUA that grants additional yields to tiles in a Holy City, with a Phoenician-like project which can move the Holy City (and perhaps even a way to steal another player's founded religion, but I have NO idea how that would work.)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

To be clear, I was 100% agreeing with you there.

As for how Babylon will be designed (I think it's one of the biggest shoe-in inclusions for New Frontier), well, I hated the Civ5 Babylon design, which is like Civ6 Korea but even more passive. Thankfully, Civ6 has been good about not going back to the well for their designs (Norway is pretty similar to Denmark, and Zulu has the same Uniques, but in general...) I know that Firaxis loves to focus on Science with Babylon, but I think it'd be cool to focus on Administration. Maybe a CUA where Governors take less or no time to be established in cities. Also, Hammurabi (who is the obvious choice for leader but obvious for a reason) was able to make Babylon such a powerhouse in part because he made Marduk the central diety in the region over Enlil. I don't know how best to represent this, but I'm picturing an LUA that grants additional yields to tiles in a Holy City, with a Phoenician-like project which can move the Holy City (and perhaps even a way to steal another player's founded religion, but I have NO idea how that would work.)

i think babylon will be like maya but culture

tall turtling culture civ

 

[Navelgazer]

i think babylon will be like maya but culture

tall turtling culture civ

Feels likely. But as much as I like the Maya design, it shows that they have to enforce tall playing through sticks and carrots in order to make it viable in this game at all. I don't see them pulling that same trick twice.

 

[Zaarin]

If we get Babylon rather than Assyria, I think the way to go is to make it like Civ5 Rome: all about the super-capital.

 

[Guynemer]

I should. Maybe I will at some point.

I don't know if this is up to your exacting standards, but

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=904638950

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1161626651

 

[cosmicmangobear]

Regarding the issue of representation, I'd really like it if going forward (Civ 7 and beyond) we got "core" civilizations in the base game, and New Frontier style bundles from then on. Expansions seem to have stagnated into "one civ per region" compromise. But by releasing optional themed bundles (Celts, Native America, Ancient Near East), players could focus on their preferred groups without worrying about there not being enough "slots" left.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I don't know if this is up to your exacting standards, but

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=904638950

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1161626651

the first mod, at least, still has a ton of explicit overlap: Pella can be a city founded by Gorgo or Pericles, while Pasaegardae and Persepolis can be founded by Macedon, while Pataliputra is Chandragupta Maurya’s capital but appears as Patna as a city to be founded by Gandhi, even though they’re just the Sanskrit/Hindi names of the same city

@Zaarin would hopefully avoid that

 

[SeelingCat]

the first mod, at least, still has a ton of explicit overlap: Pella can be a city founded by Gorgo or Pericles, while Pasaegardae and Persepolis can be founded by Macedon, while Pataliputra is Chandragupta Maurya’s capital but appears as Patna as a city to be founded by Gandhi, even though they’re just the Sanskrit/Hindi names of the same city

Just wanted to pop in to say that Rosetta has a feature that prevents doubled-up city names to prevent this issue

 

[Mudokon Pop]

Not every civ needs a female ruler, and I'm not sure Ireland would be my top pick for it--but then again, neither would France yet here we are.

I agree - not every civ needs a female ruler - especially if no female ruler fits the criteria of ruling the entire kingdom. I only mentioned her as a counterpoint to Boudicca - much like your mention of Cartimandua. Brian Boru, Flann Sinna or perhaps Turlough O'Connor for a somewhat more peaceful, productive king.

I'd dearly, dearly love to see an Aramaic civilization, ideally led by Zenobia.

With a rebellious civ like Gran Columbia already included, Palmyra as a civ is more plausible now. I wasn't sure if civs born from failed rebellions would be considered but then again countless empires collapsed after the death of their greatest ruler anyways.

 

[krmarci]

[...] only 3 Muslim civilizations out of 50, [...]

Technically, you are right, with Arabia, the Ottomans and Mali, but let's not forget that the game also includes pre-Islam Nubia, Persia, Egypt, Indonesia...

 

[Guynemer]

Just wanted to pop in to say that Rosetta has a feature that prevents doubled-up city names to prevent this issue

Thanks for all of your fun mods, by the way.

 

[Zaarin]

With a rebellious civ like Gran Columbia already included, Palmyra as a civ is more plausible now. I wasn't sure if civs born from failed rebellions would be considered but then again countless empires collapsed after the death of their greatest ruler anyways.

Indeed, and like Gran Colombia for northern South America, Zenobia's Palmyra would be an excellent stand-in for both Bronze/Iron Age Aramaea and post-Classical Syria.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Indeed, and like Gran Colombia for northern South America, Zenobia's Palmyra would be an excellent stand-in for both Bronze/Iron Age Aramaea and post-Classical Syria.

Indeed, and I’ve mentioned this suggestion before, but the civ I’d like to see the most out of the Middle East is the Sultanate of Oman and Muscat. It would fulfill @Krajzen ’s request for more Rennaissance Islamic Nations, and as the premier trading nation in the Indian Ocean between the Swahili, Chola and Portuguese, they’d be an amazing fit. You’d have to rename the Zanzibar and Muscat city states, yes, but they’d be well worth it.

 

[Krajzen]

Technically, you are right, with Arabia, the Ottomans and Mali, but let's not forget that the game also includes pre-Islam Nubia, Persia, Egypt, Indonesia...

Sorry but the argument that there are a many "civs from countries which are muslim today but there werent back in the day" as an argument against adding more actual Islamic civilizations is much more od the infamous "technical" variety of truth than just admitting there are only three muslim civs in the game

Ancient Egypt is, in every aspect, completely and utterly separate entity from Islamic Egypt so it obviously doesn't count to the counter of Islamic civs. The only things which connect ancient Egypt and Islamic Egypt are some meager linguistic remnants and genes. (Thats actually an irritating problem for me in video games - we are never going to get Islamic Egypt of Fatimids, Ayyubids and Mamluks because somehow that completely alien entity of ancient Egypt, whcih they couldn't even decipher writing of and knew nothing of its history, somehow it covers Egypt of Cairo, Saladin and Copts)
Persia in civ series is always depicted as 100% Achaemenid zoroastrian entity so it also doesn't count as "Islamic civ". There is of course cultural continuity from Achaemenids to medieval Iran, but unless I see a single tiniest bit of civ's design of Iran mentioning its Islamic part then I don't count those beings as Islamic.
Pre - Islamic Nubia is very different entity even from Christian millenium of Nubia, not to even mention Funj which came like a millenium and few centuries later.
Indonesia is a weird case, its greatest centuries came under Hindu-Buddhist dynasties so it usually gets this treatment, here actually I have no problems with that at all, but it still doesn't count as "technically" Islamic civ.

There are three Islamic civs out of 50 in this game (if we get no more), Arabia, Mali and Ottomans. I'm Iot saying there should be some idiotic quota for cultures, Religionz and regions, it was just my personal offhand disapointment, but I think saying there are much more Islamic civs that this because "they fit modern borders..." is much more "technically true" statement than "actually true" one