[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

Also, I would definitely say there are measurable and meaningful degrees of nasty. Cyrus for example was a relatively progressive leader for his time (even though he didn't "outlaw slavery" as some people claim) and he seemed to be conscious of many of the ills that people suffered, and even tried to alleviate some. Now contrast this with a Josef Stalin, a Pol Pot, even someone like a Leopold II. Some leaders are more cruel than others. Some nations commit atrocities far worse than others. There is a meaningful difference between outright genocide and war of conquest and defensive war.

This is a key point. Most leaders until at least the renaissance were basically forced to be leaders who conquered. Conquering was a necessity in ancient and medieval times. Especially in the cases of people like Genghis, who was actually a lot like Cyrus, who you mention for his actual governance strategy.

It’s imperative to stop comparing ancient and medieval leaders for their death counts to modern evils like Hitler because in the modern day, Hitler did it out of hate rather than necessity and war wasn’t a necessity in his time.

warmongering was something common even among ‘peaceful’ leaders in those times, and recognizing that is key to understanding that the only people who should be left out of consideration for civ are modern leaders who murdered out of hate, intentionally caused poverty, etc.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Kind of a moot point because an "empire" is already defined as compromising of a number of territories which were at one point independent. and since it very rarely happens that nations or peoples forfeit their independence willingly, the idea of an empire already more or less precludes violent conquest, so your question does not make much sense.

I think you meant "includes" or "implies" instead of preclude, but I generally agree with this. The only instances where empires are not acquired through some sort of violence, I think, are either through union of royal families (which often still don't quite reach a state of imperialism absent additional conquest), or by claiming completely unsettled territory (and even then really aren't empires, but we still include civs like the Maori absent any better example of imperialism in the region).

Re: The Navajo

Soooooo my hopes about the Navajo are a bit muddled at the moment thanks to a recent trip to northern Arizona. Apparently the Navajo nation is expressing an extremely high infection rate with the current pandemic, and has a higher infection rate than the state of New York. This phenomenon is largely unique to the Navajo and isn't happening on other reservations like the Yavapai, Havasupai, Tohono O'odam, or Apache, nor even in the Hopi reservation which lies wholly within the Navajo reservation. Apparently the Navajo government is trying their best to implement and emphasize the importance of pandemic procedure, but the tribe members are mostly neglecting to social distance and wear masks. Worse, instead of quarantininng and seeking proper medical care, many are participating in healing circles. I.e., they are getting together in their hogans and intentionally breathing the same circulating air.

Given that I and I think others were hoping for a Navajo nation with a hogan UI that would incorporate a plague/pandemic mechanic, specifically functioning as a healing house, this development disheartens me. It would feel, at minimum, insensitive at this point to implement a Navajo civ that represents hogans as an anti-pandemic mechanic when in reality they have precisely the opposite effect with respect to respiratory contagions.

I am hoping that if we do get a Navajo civ, there is no tribal medicine aspect and instead they focus on other things like a unique holy site district. It would have been a cool, if pseudo-scientific, hippy-ish interpretation of the Navajo, but at this point I find the notion of representing tribal medicine--particularly in the Navajo's case--as effective is borderline unconscionable.

We may still get the Apache instead; perhaps not as large and influential as the Navajo, but with a more recognizable leader and a stronger history of expansionism. So the hogan problem might even be a non-issue.

 

[Neirai]

Re: The Navajo

Soooooo my hopes about the Navajo are a bit muddled at the moment thanks to a recent trip to northern Arizona. Apparently the Navajo nation is expressing an extremely high infection rate with the current pandemic, and has a higher infection rate than the state of New York. This phenomenon is largely unique to the Navajo and isn't happening on other reservations like the Yavapai, Havasupai, Tohono O'odam, or Apache, nor even in the Hopi reservation which lies wholly within the Navajo reservation. Apparently the Navajo government is trying their best to implement and emphasize the importance of pandemic procedure, but the tribe members are mostly neglecting to social distance and wear masks. Worse, instead of quarantininng and seeking proper medical care, many are participating in healing circles. I.e., they are getting together in their hogans and intentionally breathing the same circulating air.

Given that I and I think others were hoping for a Navajo nation with a hogan UI that would incorporate a plague/pandemic mechanic, specifically functioning as a healing house, this development disheartens me. It would feel, at minimum, insensitive at this point to implement a Navajo civ that represents hogans as an anti-pandemic mechanic when in reality they have precisely the opposite effect with respect to respiratory contagions.

I hate to call you out on this (especially because I've certainly done the same) but this is the sort of thing that could make indigenous people upset about people from other cultures depicting their culture; we love the idea of a hogan but only if the hogan matches our culture's perspective of how healing and health works. We can say "yeah but science shows" but -- and especially with something as novel as COVID19 -- this is our method of determining what is beneficial vs their own.
If the infection rate supports our theory that the hogan is causing COVID19 to spread like wildfire; so be it. Remember of course that the hogan is not new; it has been a facet of Navajo culture, I assume, for longer than COVID19 has been a thing, and will persist longer than we will. That it may be unhelpful in the current crisis does not mean that it has not been a respected facet of the culture and perhaps helpful in previous crises or future ones.

It either is a Navajo-accepted method of health and healing or it isn't; it's not for me to decide.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I hate to call you out on this (especially because I've certainly done the same) but this is the sort of thing that could make indigenous people upset about people from other cultures depicting their culture; we love the idea of a hogan but only if the hogan matches our culture's perspective of how healing and health works. We can say "yeah but science shows" but -- and especially with something as novel as COVID19 -- this is our method of determining what is beneficial vs their own.
If the infection rate supports our theory that the hogan is causing COVID19 to spread like wildfire; so be it. Remember of course that the hogan is not new; it has been a facet of Navajo culture, I assume, for longer than COVID19 has been a thing, and will persist longer than we will. That it may be unhelpful in the current crisis does not mean that it has not been a respected facet of the culture and perhaps helpful in previous crises or future ones.

It either is a Navajo-accepted method of health and healing or it isn't; it's not for me to decide.

I hate to call you out on this, but fact is fact and science is science. There are many aspects of indigenous cultures, particularly with respect to religion and medicine, which are not scientifically supported and often flout faith and superstition in direct contradiction to reason and methodology. I don't care if the Navajo or any people believe their traditional pseudo-science is effective; absent a clearly proposed mechanism and repeatable results they are not reliable medicine. Some traditional remedies have stood up to scrutiny; many do not. It may not be for you to decide the line between science and superstition, but there is an entire community of experts who can pretty definitively say whether something should be put forth publicly as one or the other.

At any rate, it precisely the conflict between native belief and demonstrable reality, a conflict which has had very real and severe consequences for the Navajo and surrounding states alike, that makes the release of a Navajo civ this year quite potentially problematic. If the obvious Navajo UI is a Hogan, I am apprehensive that any portrayal of the Navajo in civ could exist without offending someone's sensibilities.

 

[Zaarin]

I hate to call you out on this, but fact is fact and science is science. There are many aspects of indigenous cultures, particularly with respect to religion and medicine, which are not scientifically supported and often flout faith and superstition in direct contradiction to reason and methodology. I don't care if the Navajo or any people believe their traditional pseudo-science is effective; absent a clearly proposed mechanism and repeatable results they are not reliable medicine. Some traditional remedies have stood up to scrutiny; many do not. It may not be for you to decide the line between science and superstition, but there is an entire community of experts who can pretty definitively say whether something should be put forth publicly as one or the other.

At any rate, it precisely the conflict between native belief and demonstrable reality, a conflict which has had very real and severe consequences for the Navajo and surrounding states alike, that makes the release of a Navajo civ this year quite potentially problematic. If the obvious Navajo UI is a Hogan, I am apprehensive that any portrayal of the Navajo in civ could exist without offending someone's sensibilities.

If portraying that hogans exist is problematic because of a 2020 happenstance that had nothing to do with their historical portrayal, then Firaxis are hypersensitive to the point of absurdity.

 

[Neirai]

At any rate, it precisely the conflict between native belief and demonstrable reality, a conflict which has had very real and severe consequences for the Navajo and surrounding states alike, that makes the release of a Navajo civ this year quite potentially problematic. If the obvious Navajo UI is a Hogan, I am apprehensive that any portrayal of the Navajo in civ could exist without offending someone's sensibilities.

When I built the Blackfoot mod for Civ V, one of the major elements of their design was the traditional belief in "Water People", spiritual beings that were said to live in water and with whom 'trade' was the source of magical blessings and power. Do I believe in them? No. Were they important enough to figure in the mod? Yes.

That said, I am pretty sure that you are right that it would offend someone's sensibilities -- especially because there's a large (read: > 5) number of players who don't believe that any indigenous Western Hemisphere peoples qualify as civilizations.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Given that I and I think others were hoping for a Navajo nation with a hogan UI that would incorporate a plague/pandemic mechanic, specifically functioning as a healing house, this development disheartens me. It would feel, at minimum, insensitive at this point to implement a Navajo civ that represents hogans as an anti-pandemic mechanic when in reality they have precisely the opposite effect with respect to respiratory contagions.

They could also just make it a Granary replacement and let it provide more food, housing, and faith.

Considering that these new Civs probably aren't going to have any direct bonuses towards any of the new game modes, and if the Navajo are in mind to be included, I don't think the Hogan would have anything to do with diseases/pandemics.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

If portraying that hogans exist is problematic because of a 2020 happenstance that had nothing to do with their historical portrayal, then Firaxis are hypersensitive to the point of absurdity.

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Consider that Civ V India's ability is called population growth, I would assume the developers are not the most sensitive of people.

 

[Jeppetto]

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Consider that Civ V India's ability is called population growth, I would assume the developers are not the most sensitive of people.

If we're talking insensitive, that ability's name is nothing compared to them endorsing the Nuke Ghandi meme. If he gets the Nuke Happy trait (66% chance just for him) he has AFAIK unique kudo/complaint just for that. The "having weapon is different than actually using it" thing. If this doesn't trigger people I don't think a small hut repelling diseases a little bit would.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

If portraying that hogans exist is problematic because of a 2020 happenstance that had nothing to do with their historical portrayal, then Firaxis are hypersensitive to the point of absurdity.

Except it does have some large connection to their historic function, and it would be portraying them in 2020, with direct or implied commentary on that 2020 happenstance. It would be like releasing an expansion pack with tsunamis just after Fukushima, or with pandemics after Covid.

When I built the Blackfoot mod for Civ V, one of the major elements of their design was the traditional belief in "Water People", spiritual beings that were said to live in water and with whom 'trade' was the source of magical blessings and power. Do I believe in them? No. Were they important enough to figure in the mod? Yes.

That said, I am pretty sure that you are right that it would offend someone's sensibilities -- especially because there's a large (read: > 5) number of players who don't believe that any indigenous Western Hemisphere peoples qualify as civilizations.

Water people were never relevant to a present national/global struggle, or involved political discourse about how the Blackfoot interacted with and/or were affected by it. It's a pretty harmless inclusion, as would have been the Hogan were it not for what is currently going on in the Navajo nation.

They could also just make it a Granary replacement and let it provide more food, housing, and faith.

Considering that these new Civs probably aren't going to have any direct bonuses towards any of the new game modes, and if the Navajo are in mind to be included, I don't think the Hogan would have anything to do with diseases/pandemics.

You're right, that may ultimately avoid the issue of drawing parallels to the pandemic. Although we might see complaints of whether that captures the feel of a hogan.

​

Consider that Civ V India's ability is called population growth, I would assume the developers are not the most sensitive of people.

The design team is only as sensitive as it's creative directors. VI's developers have been far more culturally sensitive than V's, and I think it's unfair (and has been sometime) to hold them to the same standards and expectations of prior installments, both good and bad.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

i mean the diseases the navajo have historically had to combat haven’t been respiratory in nature (almost all known respiratory diseases have come from the old world). Purely from a scientific perspective, a steam hut makes a lot of sense for disease repelling bcs it would kill a lot of germs due to the heat. One supergerm being assisted by the hogans doesn’t mean they’re pseudoscientific in nature, let alone worthy of exclusion


Edit: I’ll also note that hogans primarily and originally functioned as households. That’s very uncontroversial if they choose to make it an improvement or a neighborhood replacement

 

[PhoenicianGold]

i mean the diseases the navajo have historically had to combat haven’t been respiratory in nature (almost all known respiratory diseases have come from the old world). Purely from a scientific perspective, a steam hut makes a lot of sense for disease repelling bcs it would kill a lot of germs due to the heat. One supergerm being assisted by the hogans doesn’t mean they’re pseudoscientific in nature, let alone worthy of exclusion

It's still mechanically problematic no matter how it's portrayed, though. For one, I doubt any pandemic expansion would distinguish between respiratory and other types of illnesses. But if it did, you have one of the two following scenarios:

1) Hogans cure everything but respiratory illnesses - Navajo backlash at a pointed Covid-19 criticism making them seem "backwards."

2) Hogans cure everything - generalized backlash at misrepresentation of Navajo healing circles, potentially Navajo backlash anyway at minimizing their cultural pain.

It's just designed by circumstance to be a touchy subject no matter how it goes down.

 

[Zaarin]

It would be like releasing an expansion pack with tsunamis just after Fukushima, or with pandemics after Covid.

Again, not doing so would be hypersensitive. There are wildfires every single year in California, and last year there was a devastating wildfire in Australia. By that slippery logic, they shouldn't have added wildfires in the last DLC. Whitewashing or tiptoeing around history because people will be offended is, frankly, childish.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

There's not going to be a pandemic mechanic so this whole line of arguments is pointless. If you think they are worried about upsetting the Navajo, it likely follows that they will also read the winds and decide that the world is in no mood to entertain itself with make-believe plagues.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Again, not doing so would be hypersensitive. There are wildfires every single year in California, and last year there was a devastating wildfire in Australia. By that slippery logic, they shouldn't have added wildfires in the last DLC. Whitewashing or tiptoeing around history because people will be offended is, frankly, childish.

I admit, I was a bit confused about the wildfire addition, particularly after Australia.

It's not about whitewashing, though. It's about avoiding sensitive topics that are still being resolved. TV shows have pulled episodes on several occasions after school shootings. The episodes were produced and would likely have aired at any other time; they are definitely part of the social experience and media will be made about them. But many studios recognize that it is somewhat insensitive to dramatize others' pain while they are still living it.

I am still suspicious that there was a third expack which in some part was broken up into NFP because the devs pulled a pandemic mechanic. Though we may never know if that was actually what happened.

 

[Zaarin]

And I still reserve the right to believe that, if the target audience is adult, that kind of behavior is irresponsible and childish. But I think you hit the nail on the head in the last paragraph: the question isn't about "sensitivity" but PR and marketability.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

that said, if the navajo nation agreed to be portrayed in a certain way, they’ll probably be fine with that portrayal regardless. The hogan probably would provide extra housing and culture reasonably anyway.

 

[Neirai]

It's still mechanically problematic no matter how it's portrayed, though. For one, I doubt any pandemic expansion would distinguish between respiratory and other types of illnesses. But if it did, you have one of the two following scenarios:

1) Hogans cure everything but respiratory illnesses - Navajo backlash at a pointed Covid-19 criticism making them seem "backwards."

2) Hogans cure everything - generalized backlash at misrepresentation of Navajo healing circles, potentially Navajo backlash anyway at minimizing their cultural pain.

It's just designed by circumstance to be a touchy subject no matter how it goes down.

Hmm. I guess when I read plague mechanic I assume it would work a lot like the Health/Plague mod from Civ V, where each city has a "Health" score and if it dips too low they get penalized by plague mechanics. Once a plague is activated, though, it behaves like a disaster, spreading between cities/units/trade routes. You could have a mechanic where hospitals etc can actually "cure" a plague but I expect the plague to run its course without much way of stopping it besides a % chance to resist based on overall health.

My point being I would expect the Hogan to just be a unique replacement for an existing building type with an additional +X Health slapped on. I didn't think it would involve curing/preventing/blocking a specific type of disease.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

You're right, that may ultimately avoid the issue of drawing parallels to the pandemic. Although we might see complaints of whether that captures the feel of a hogan.

I mean the primary functions of them are dwellings and used as a sacred space. That to me means housing and faith bonuses, so I think it would be appropriate.
More appropriate than the Seowon, which should primarily provide culture if we wanted to be historically accurate. But since it replaces the Campus it doesn't, and no one really complains about that, at least vocally anymore.

There's not going to be a pandemic mechanic so this whole line of arguments is pointless. If you think they are worried about upsetting the Navajo, it likely follows that they will also read the winds and decide that the world is in no mood to entertain itself with make-believe plagues.

I mean there is still a probability that there could be a pandemic game mode and diseases could be added as like another natural disaster that can affect multiple Civs.
I wouldn't count it out.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Hmm. I guess when I read plague mechanic I assume it would work a lot like the Health/Plague mod from Civ V, where each city has a "Health" score and if it dips too low they get penalized by plague mechanics. Once a plague is activated, though, it behaves like a disaster, spreading between cities/units/trade routes. You could have a mechanic where hospitals etc can actually "cure" a plague but I expect the plague to run its course without much way of stopping it besides a % chance to resist based on overall health.

My point being I would expect the Hogan to just be a unique replacement for an existing building type with an additional +X Health slapped on. I didn't think it would involve curing/preventing/blocking a specific type of disease.

if there’s a disease game mode, this is probably both the best and least tone deaf way of doing it