[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Hmm. I guess when I read plague mechanic I assume it would work a lot like the Health/Plague mod from Civ V, where each city has a "Health" score and if it dips too low they get penalized by plague mechanics. Once a plague is activated, though, it behaves like a disaster, spreading between cities/units/trade routes. You could have a mechanic where hospitals etc can actually "cure" a plague but I expect the plague to run its course without much way of stopping it besides a % chance to resist based on overall health.

My point being I would expect the Hogan to just be a unique replacement for an existing building type with an additional +X Health slapped on. I didn't think it would involve curing/preventing/blocking a specific type of disease.
if there’s a disease game mode, this is probably both the best and least tone deaf way of doing it
 
Maybe towards the end of the expansion cycle if things have calmed down a bit.
they may have theoretically intended for it to be elsewhere and moved it back behind the scenes prior to announcement
 
Maybe towards the end of the expansion cycle if things have calmed down a bit.
I'm sure they would.
Either way it would be optional like the Apocalypse mode so if people did feel sensitive toward it they wouldn't have to play it.

I know that I and others would love to add it in. Members of my family, including me, has even played "Pandemic" the board game several times recently so I have no problem if they even decided to add it in the September pack, since we know July is Secret Societies.
 
If we're talking insensitive, that ability's name is nothing compared to them endorsing the Nuke Ghandi meme. If he gets the Nuke Happy trait (66% chance just for him) he has AFAIK unique kudo/complaint just for that. The "having weapon is different than actually using it" thing. If this doesn't trigger people I don't think a small hut repelling diseases a little bit would.

I agree that I don't think the Navajo and the Hogan would be an issue even with their current COVID crisis.

But I'd say there's certainly a difference in depicting someone like Gandhi (as problematic as it is in that sense) and potential offense to the Navajo (and other Native American groups).

The Navajo (and other Native American groups) are frankly still in a bad place so to speak, suffering from both historical and current injustices (not too steer into current politics - but in the US Native American's have the highest rate of death at the hands police officers of any group).

Gandhi, conversely, won. He got what he strove for and achieved independence for India.

It's basically punching down vs punching up, why some targets get more sensitivity than others.
 
I mean the primary functions of them are dwellings and used as a sacred space. That to me means housing and faith bonuses, so I think it would be appropriate.
More appropriate than the Seowon, which should primarily provide culture if we wanted to be historically accurate. But since it replaces the Campus it doesn't, and no one really complains about that, at least vocally anymore.

Yup, actually Seowon, or simply to say those Shuyuan(書院) in South East Asia at that time should instead give culture rather than giving science, as they mainly teach literature writing/ study and prepare for the government examination. Korea and China just don't really good at science in real history(especially ancient Korea). Personally I wish that Dev team can change such stereotype in the Civ VII

Glad that finally someone share similar view with me :lol:

BTW, forgive me that I haven't chase for the previous posts, but why now everyone talk about Navajo? Is that any leak related to them??
 
It's still mechanically problematic no matter how it's portrayed, though. For one, I doubt any pandemic expansion would distinguish between respiratory and other types of illnesses. But if it did, you have one of the two following scenarios:

1) Hogans cure everything but respiratory illnesses - Navajo backlash at a pointed Covid-19 criticism making them seem "backwards."

2) Hogans cure everything - generalized backlash at misrepresentation of Navajo healing circles, potentially Navajo backlash anyway at minimizing their cultural pain.

It's just designed by circumstance to be a touchy subject no matter how it goes down.

You are so obssesed with Navajo and Hogans as If Civ 100% accurately portrayed everything and Navajo would be the first "misinterpretation". Literally any Civ can be complained about as misinterpretation or be sensitive to someone If the argumenting person feels like talking about it, you consider this somewhat more important because you paid them a visit or what not but I legit have no idea why anyone else should care or why we even have this discussion.

Gerogians aren't obssesed with walls, Russians aren't stealing anyone's culture and technology through trade, France isn't Wonder or Castle on every inch of land, Norweigans could complain that Civ represents the pillaging and murderous berserk archetype, Victoria has as unique unit guys who were supposed to supress independence of leeched-on colonies, Canada is a meme of pacifism and hockey, Aztecs LITERALLY have slavery as their unique unit, the cultural input of Japan is supposed to be making electronics (before they discover Electricity), Gorgo gets Culture from murdering people and entire Greece is the Athens and Sprata stereotype, I could go on a on.

Where those backlashes at? I feel like you get more concerned about Navajo getting offended than Navajo people even care for this game. Why are you not offended (or are concerned for other people to be offended) by Firaxis mocking the world by releasing Apocalypse gamemode during year that's meme'd as Apocalypse?

There's literally Fascism in this game as feature, you care to speak for the Jews whether they are offended that Firaxis allows someone to win the game gloriously and stand the test of time under regime that's one of the darkest things in history? Was there backlash about that? Were you concerned and spoke for the Jews then?

You declared two scenarios, as sudden expert of what Navajo get offended by, but there's third scenario: Ain't an entity that shall giveth a damn. The third scenario of Mr. Navajo won't get offended by Hogans having +2 Health written in tooltip of a videogame and the Twitter certainly won't get riled up either, you go find there masses that even know what Navajo is.
 
Glad that finally someone share similar view with me :lol:
I mean I don't mind that it does give pure science, I was just making a point that for gameplay a Campus is seen as an educational district, and since Seowons
are educational that's why they made it produce science.
Though realistically libraries and universities should give some culture anyway. I think the Seowon at least did in Civ 4.

BTW, forgive me that I haven't chase for the previous posts, but why now everyone talk about Navajo? Is that any leak related to them??
No leak. The Navajo are frequently mentioned as being a new probable Native American tribe, and I agree.
 
A minor peeve of mine is is that libraries should be able to store literature. I mean, I'm just sayin'.
That's apparently only reserved for a "Great Library." :crazyeye:

Maybe it will happen with a unique library for either Assyria or Babylon.
 
No leak. The Navajo are frequently mentioned as being a new probable Native American tribe, and I agree.

Definitely. Pros for the Navajo are:

1) They start in a portion of the TSL map that doesn't really have anyone yet (vs say the Iroquis in upstate NY).
2) They are currently a large, centralized nation, so they would be easy to coordinate with from a resourcing/PR point of view.
3) They are pretty well known already for that 'pop culture' appeal Firaxis seems to like.
4) There are a variety of uniques they could go with: people have mentioned the hogan, the 'Code Talker' for something espionage related, their current location having a lot of frequently visited natural sites (i.e. Monument Valley) for tourism/faith/culture bonuses, etc.

I don't actually think we'd see the Navajo in conjunction with a plague mechanic (I'm not even sure they'd give a Civ a game mode specific ability). They have a lot of directions they could go in with them.

Having said this, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a Jigonhsasee led Iroquois as the NA addition, not the Navajo.
 
I don't actually think we'd see the Navajo in conjunction with a plague mechanic (I'm not even sure they'd give a Civ a game mode specific ability). They have a lot of directions they could go in with them.

Having said this, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a Jigonhsasee led Iroquois as the NA addition, not the Navajo.
Yes, even though the Maya were released with the Apocalypse mode, none of that game mode was linked to the abilities. It would actually limit the choices of Civs you can play if you weren't interested in the game mode.

The Iroquois are definitely the safe bet, but with Ethiopia returning and the possibility of Babylon, Portugal, and Byzantines, I can easily see them going with a new tribe as to not crowd the Pass with mostly old Civs.
 
Yup, actually Seowon, or simply to say those Shuyuan(書院) in South East Asia at that time should instead give culture rather than giving science, as they mainly teach literature writing/ study and prepare for the government examination. Korea and China just don't really good at science in real history(especially ancient Korea). Personally I wish that Dev team can change such stereotype in the Civ VII

Glad that finally someone share similar view with me :lol:

BTW, forgive me that I haven't chase for the previous posts, but why now everyone talk about Navajo? Is that any leak related to them??

I’m sorry, how does China not make sense for science. They discovered gunpowder, (modern) paper, silk, printing, made advancements in shipbuilding and trade strategy. Etc.

India, Arabia and China arguably should be the strongest science civs in the game.

Also, East Asia having strengths in science isn’t a ‘stereotype’

Given what campuses actually function as in Civ, Seowons giving science makes a lot of sense, although giving them some fusion characteristic with culture would’ve made more sense.
 
Yes, even though the Maya were released with the Apocalypse mode, none of that game mode was linked to the abilities. It would actually limit the choices of Civs you can play if you weren't interested in the game mode.

The Iroquois are definitely the safe bet, but with Ethiopia returning and the possibility of Babylon, Portugal, and Byzantines, I can easily see them going with a new tribe as to not crowd the Pass with mostly old Civs.

I’m secretly hoping that the common thought that Europe will be one of the two civs pack and precolombian north america will be one of the one civ packs will be reversed and we get the Iroquois and a new Native civ + just Portugal as new Europe.
 
Given what campuses actually function as in Civ, Seowons giving science makes a lot of sense, although giving them some fusion characteristic with culture would’ve made more sense.
TBH I'd love to see the "Korea is uber-science civ" stereotype broken. In the future, I'd love to see a more historical perspective on Korea as a culture/faith civ. I get the feeling the science stereotype mostly comes from the 90s when South Korea became a supercenter for research, and then Sejong (and Seondeok) got shoehorned into that as an afterthought. (Totally agree with you about China, though.)
 
I’m secretly hoping that the common thought that Europe will be one of the two civs pack and precolombian north america will be one of the one civ packs will be reversed and we get the Iroquois and a new Native civ + just Portugal as new Europe.
I mean I put Assyria with the Byzantines because geographically they are closer together than the Byzantines and Portugal.

Honestly Portugal doesn't have to be paired with a European civ if it's in the one with two civs. I think there is a possibility that it could also be paired with Morocco.
 
TBH I'd love to see the "Korea is uber-science civ" stereotype broken. In the future, I'd love to see a more historical perspective on Korea as a culture/faith civ. I get the feeling the science stereotype mostly comes from the 90s when South Korea became a supercenter for research, and then Sejong (and Seondeok) got shoehorned into that as an afterthought. (Totally agree with you about China, though.)
oh for sure, culture makes way more sense for korea, but it’s not like they aren’t worthy of science in that right either. I’d classify writing as scientific in nature and Sejong founding Hangul could reasonably make him a good science leader. Seondeok, on the other hand, was famous for building observatories, which would explain her science focus.

Is Korea the best civ to represent an uber science focus? probably not. Like I said, India, Arabia, China, Maya, a mesopotamian civ and to a lesser extent, Greece, should be the default science civs. Can it fairly be represented as one? Absolutely.
 
You are so obssesed with Navajo and Hogans as If Civ 100% accurately portrayed everything and Navajo would be the first "misinterpretation". Literally any Civ can be complained about as misinterpretation or be sensitive to someone If the argumenting person feels like talking about it, you consider this somewhat more important because you paid them a visit or what not but I legit have no idea why anyone else should care or why we even have this discussion.

Gerogians aren't obssesed with walls, Russians aren't stealing anyone's culture and technology through trade, France isn't Wonder or Castle on every inch of land, Norweigans could complain that Civ represents the pillaging and murderous berserk archetype, Victoria has as unique unit guys who were supposed to supress independence of leeched-on colonies, Canada is a meme of pacifism and hockey, Aztecs LITERALLY have slavery as their unique unit, the cultural input of Japan is supposed to be making electronics (before they discover Electricity), Gorgo gets Culture from murdering people and entire Greece is the Athens and Sprata stereotype, I could go on a on.

Where those backlashes at? I feel like you get more concerned about Navajo getting offended than Navajo people even care for this game. Why are you not offended (or are concerned for other people to be offended) by Firaxis mocking the world by releasing Apocalypse gamemode during year that's meme'd as Apocalypse?

There's literally Fascism in this game as feature, you care to speak for the Jews whether they are offended that Firaxis allows someone to win the game gloriously and stand the test of time under regime that's one of the darkest things in history? Was there backlash about that? Were you concerned and spoke for the Jews then?

You declared two scenarios, as sudden expert of what Navajo get offended by, but there's third scenario: Ain't an entity that shall giveth a damn. The third scenario of Mr. Navajo won't get offended by Hogans having +2 Health written in tooltip of a videogame and the Twitter certainly won't get riled up either, you go find there masses that even know what Navajo is.

Calm down. I was merely bringing it up as a topic for discussion. Though I would like to point out that, while it is completely fair to have a moderate amount of concern for recreating genocides in the game, the inclusion of the Jews or Armenians or any other people--as civs or city-states--does not touch on a current, raw issue people are presently dealing with. At least not in major gaming markets (which, as Zaarin observed, much of any game's sensitivity revolves around image maintenance).

That's apparently only reserved for a "Great Library." :crazyeye:

Maybe it will happen with a unique library for either Assyria or Babylon.

Or a literary school for Bulgaria.

oh for sure, culture makes way more sense for korea, but it’s not like they aren’t worthy of science in that right either. I’d classify writing as scientific in nature and Sejong founding Hangul could reasonably make him a good science leader. Seondeok, on the other hand, was famous for building observatories, which would explain her science focus.

Is Korea the best civ to represent an uber science focus? probably not. Like I said, India, Arabia, China, Maya, a mesopotamian civ and to a lesser extent, Greece, should be the default science civs. Can it fairly be represented as one? Absolutely.

I would agree, I think Hangul is one of the primary reasons why Korea resonates as a science civ.

While China could easily be any kind of civ, I think as one of the most enduring empires a cultural bent just feels more appropriate. Undoubtedly the Chinese greatest achievement is the extent to which they influenced and controlled neighboring cultures (something which it shares with other cultural civs like France; and which rises above the effect of Korean culture). Like with many other civs, for sake of gameplay they can't all be domination, or jacks-of-all-trades; I don't see specialties as misrepresenting cultures so much as trying to give them clearer playstyles and personalities, making them stand out better against a muddier backdrop of human history.
 
I think you meant "includes" or "implies" instead of preclude, but I generally agree with this. The only instances where empires are not acquired through some sort of violence, I think, are either through union of royal families (which often still don't quite reach a state of imperialism absent additional conquest), or by claiming completely unsettled territory (and even then really aren't empires, but we still include civs like the Maori absent any better example of imperialism in the region).

Re: The Navajo

Soooooo my hopes about the Navajo are a bit muddled at the moment thanks to a recent trip to northern Arizona. Apparently the Navajo nation is expressing an extremely high infection rate with the current pandemic, and has a higher infection rate than the state of New York. This phenomenon is largely unique to the Navajo and isn't happening on other reservations like the Yavapai, Havasupai, Tohono O'odam, or Apache, nor even in the Hopi reservation which lies wholly within the Navajo reservation. Apparently the Navajo government is trying their best to implement and emphasize the importance of pandemic procedure, but the tribe members are mostly neglecting to social distance and wear masks. Worse, instead of quarantininng and seeking proper medical care, many are participating in healing circles. I.e., they are getting together in their hogans and intentionally breathing the same circulating air.

Given that I and I think others were hoping for a Navajo nation with a hogan UI that would incorporate a plague/pandemic mechanic, specifically functioning as a healing house, this development disheartens me. It would feel, at minimum, insensitive at this point to implement a Navajo civ that represents hogans as an anti-pandemic mechanic when in reality they have precisely the opposite effect with respect to respiratory contagions.

I don't see any real issue here. Any representation of a healing circle that actually has curative effects is going to be somewhat fanciful, as indeed are all the existing faith-based healing mechanics in the game. Healing circles are a social structure that helps with community cohesion and addressing pyschological or other issues that can be alleviated by discussion or therapy. Trying to impose a physical medicinal function on them seems a crude Westernisation: imagining something that is at least to some degree a practical social management tool within Navajo culture as a more primitive belief in mystical spiritual healing. It's not as though healing circles are of practical benefit for treating a most physical ailments - COVID is hardly unique.

As for the hogan itself, a hogan is just a traditional dwelling - I don't see why it can't just be implemented as an early, unique Neighbourhood district, and since housing is the game's health mechanic it can even be understood to have a 'health' function interpreted that way.
 
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