[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Maybe do something interesting, like you can only found one city per continent but you get some significant bonuses to make up for it.

How many continents are usually in a game though? I think that would be more limiting than the Maya, unless it would really be a big bonus.

I picture them as not necessarily wanting to control as much land though, but instead establish their cities on the coast to control the most ocean tiles for their trade routes. So I guess it could work.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

How many continents are usually in a game though? I think that would be more limiting than the Maya, unless it would really be a big bonus.

I picture them as not necessarily wanting to control as much land though, but instead establish their cities on the coast to control the most ocean tiles for their trade routes. So I guess it could work.

I guess in theory you could have the bonus scale inversely with continent number. But even still it feels like it could easily fall on the extreme end of the ineffective/broken spectrum.

The latter idea seems much more likely. A trade counterpart to Indonesia and the Maori or a "keep water tiles" counterpart to the Dutch. Portugal never seemed to venture that far inland as much as Spain so a shallow sprawling empire seems like a good way of differentiating them.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

If there is one nation that make sense to be seen as a science nation, that would be USA, today Worlds technology leader, won most noble prizes and had intellectual protection bascially since its founding. Developed alot of the Technologies we have today and is still the World technology leader.

Here to get an idea: https://share.america.gov/who-leads-world-science-technology/

The two empires was under one monarch for a while, I think around mid 1500s to mid 1600s.​

Yes, under Phillip, who leads Spain in this game, Portugal was incorporated into Spain. So Portugal partially would not make sense. If they introduced portugal though, maybe they’ll make Phillip be able to lead it when they release it?

I don't think it is the civs that make the game complete but the mechanics the game have, having the same civs show up in every civ version is a bit boring to be honest so I rather see some new ones over some of the old ones.

Same. It wouldn’t matter to be if we saw portugal or byzantium again. I want to see new civs— the timurids, tlingit, navajo, vietnam, philippines, tonga, for example.

I mean, England could also easily be a science civ as the originator of the agricultural and industrial revolutions. Instead we gave that and Germany production bonuses.

And yeah Spain under Philip II had already acquired the Portuguese empire. It's also a rather subjective matter which had the bigger legacy, as most American colonies were Spanish but Brazil is by far the most successful of the Latin states. Add the fact that the Spanish mechanics are also very archetypally Portuguese (and otherwise we see other "Portuguese" ideas in the design of the English and Dutch), and Portugal struggles to find new design space. While I think the addition of Grand Colombia certainly begs an attempt at including Portugal, I still would be able to make peace with a VI without Portugal.

I agree it is subjective. I would also argue that your and others' specific idea of completedness is colored by an expectation that VI conform to a model defined by prior installments. While I don't completely dismiss the idea of VI just doing over what has been successful, I also find that notion...lacking imagination? Like, even after seeing all the potential VI has had to introduce new concepts, people still would rather regress to the rote and familiar?

I'd rather start from a more aspirational goal and then see how much it must make concessions and slide backwards into traditionalism. Instead of starting from a presumption of some sort of ever-snowballing, mandatory baseline that can only accommodate incremental growth. Especially in the case of a franchise like Civ where players are already slow to adopt new installments because of a lack of new features.

I mean the agricultural revolution occurred 6000 or so years ago didn’t it? England definitely wasn’t the originator of that. Although England’s scientific (mostly great people-oriented) bonuses seem to have be have been reflected in Scotland, which actually created most of the UK’s most famous and important scientists, like Fleming. I also agree that *in theory* it makes more sense to have spain and a spanish post colonial state than it does portugal and brazil, because Pedro led both, and the cultures were almost identical at his period of time.

While I wouldn’t mind Portugal, it’s already covered in two leaders who led that country yet aren’t already leading it. If they just dropped a portugal ‘civ’ and ability and let you pick between those two, without losing a specific civ and leader slot, that, in my mind, would be the least intrusive way of doing this.

The Spanish mechanics are 3/4 religious. I don't see Portugal having any of those abilities. As for Treasure Fleets only one of the bonuses I could have seen go to Portugal with is extra gold for trade routes between continents, but that one ability doesn't leave out design space.

Some things that I have mentioned and seen is: unique Great Admirals, science for coastal water tiles (cartography science), more gold in a trade route for every water tile in the origin city (like Mali with desert tiles) , naval units gain experience points for exploration like recon units etc.
I actually picture them more like Phoenicia but for the Renaissance era. If we can have both Scythia and Mongolia and make them unique, I think Portugal is possible.
If they try a new concept on an old civ I don't see the problem. We've seen that with the Ottomans and their unique governor, the Inca with working mountain tiles, and more recently the Maya not gaining fresh water for housing and actually having to build tall.
That to me means they aren't lacking imagination, even if they brought back a returning civ.

I don’t think the Inca and Maya abilities were all that mechanically new as a concept . They were unique, yeah, but it’s not the level of the Ottomans, who you mentioned.

I’d appreciate designs like theirs, however, but i think naval civs and trade civs have kinda reached their limits in terms of what they can do.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I also agree that *in theory* it makes more sense to have spain and a spanish post colonial state than it does portugal and brazil, because Pedro led both, and the cultures were almost identical at his period of time.

While I wouldn’t mind Portugal, it’s already covered in two leaders who led that country yet aren’t already leading it. If they just dropped a portugal ‘civ’ and ability and let you pick between those two, without losing a specific civ and leader slot, that, in my mind, would be the least intrusive way of doing this.

The leader of Brazil is Pedro II. It was his father, Pedro I, that briefly lead Portugal.

Same. It wouldn’t matter to be if we saw portugal or byzantium again. I want to see new civs— the timurids, tlingit, navajo, vietnam, philippines, tonga, for example.

I mean personally I want a mixture of both. I'd like to see Navajo, Tlinglit, and Vietnam as well as the old favorites like Assyria/Babylon, Portugal and the Byzantines.

I'd be surprised if we got that many new Civs in the pass. It might be similar to the past expansions with 4 new and 4 old. Besides I don't know how they would include Tonga if the Maori already took the Polynesian spot in their design.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean the agricultural revolution occurred 6000 or so years ago didn’t it?

Pretty sure they were referring to industrial agriculture--e.g., artificial fertilizers, pesticides, etc.--the agricultural developments that led to the population boom in the 19th century.

 

[PhilBowles]

I mean the agricultural revolution occurred 6000 or so years ago didn’t it?

The term is used in the UK to refer to agricultural intensification that accompanied the Industrial Revolution. If you want to look to prehistoric developments Britain was also the source of the European Iron Age - it may not have originated on the island, but it was driven largely by tin mined from what's now Cornwall.

England definitely wasn’t the originator of that. Although England’s scientific (mostly great people-oriented) bonuses seem to have be have been reflected in Scotland, which actually created most of the UK’s most famous and important scientists, like Fleming.

England makes sense for Great People production for scientists (especially as there are four English and one Scottish scientist on the highly selective Civ VI list alone) engineers and writers - but comparatively few great artists or musicians. It would also thematically make sense for Great Merchants, but most of the merchants represented in Civ VI aren't British (Adam Smith is the main one, and Scottish) and many of the most prominent were slave traders who obviously wouldn't be represented in a Civ game.

Overall, though, I like a representation for England that puts it in an advantageous position to get ahead in science (and indeed commerce and culture) rather than giving it intrinsic bonuses to science. England is simply in an extremely fortuitous position geographically in the real world - it dominates the agriculturally productive areas of the second-largest island in the temperate zone, it's very rich in the specific resources that have been important for major technological developments and for wealth generation, it has ready access to a major ocean, and it has a topographic and geological diversity that's been important for the origination and development of multiple sciences including geology and paleontology. The preeminence of British - and indeed mainly English - scientists in much of the Victorian era reflected in part the ease with which they could access a huge imperial territory (not to mention artefacts, species and other items brought to Britain from those areas), something that for other societies was often restricted to the upper echelons of society (such as Humboldt) but available to talented people of lower social classes like Wallace: there was simply a larger pool of expertise to draw from than in some other countries where fewer people would have those opportunities

The distinguishing common features I see to England's culture over time are political stability, wealth, and militarism - all of which produce an environment conducive to scientific and technological development without the culture itself necessarily having a strong scientific focus.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

The leader of Brazil is Pedro II. It was his father, Pedro I, that briefly lead Portugal.


I mean personally I want a mixture of both. I'd like to see Navajo, Tlinglit, and Vietnam as well as the old favorites like Assyria/Babylon, Portugal and the Byzantines.

I'd be surprised if we got that many new Civs in the pass. It might be similar to the past expansions with 4 new and 4 old. Besides I don't know how they would include Tonga if the Maori already took the Polynesian spot in their design.

Tonga would have functioned better if the Maori hadn’t gotten such an uncharacteristic seafaring bonus, but i could imagine they could still receive bonuses to 1 or 2 tile island settling, which would be really interesting, or have a unique city center that helps with outputs when they can’t do as much with districts (maybe all tier 1 specialty district buildings can be built in a unique city center?)

I recognize I was mistaken regarding Pedro II, but i don’t know that the cultural differences between brazil and portugal had yet differentiated during Pedro II’s rule. There still would, presumably, be some overlap

 

[PhilBowles]

Tonga would have functioned better if the Maori hadn’t gotten such an uncharacteristic seafaring bonus, but i could imagine they could still receive bonuses to 1 or 2 tile island settling, which would be really interesting, or have a unique city center that helps with outputs when they can’t do as much with districts (maybe all tier 1 specialty district buildings can be built in a unique city center?)

What purpose would there be to adding Tonga in a game that already deliberately represents Polynesian seafaring societies with the Maori? They chose the wrong Polynesian culture to act as the 'face' of Polynesia but it was intended as the same basic civ. They weren't out to represent the Maori as the Maori - just to put a name that wasn't a blob to Polynesia.

You might as well ask for Denmark back, complete with a Viking focus, in a game that already has Norway as its Viking civ.

By all means suggest Tonga for the Civ VII incarnation of Polynesia/Maori, but I don't see what reason there is to add it to Civ VI.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

What purpose would there be to adding Tonga in a game that already deliberately represents Polynesian seafaring societies with the Maori? They chose the wrong Polynesian culture to act as the 'face' of Polynesia but it was intended as the same basic civ. They weren't out to represent the Maori as the Maori - just to put a name that wasn't a blob to Polynesia.

You might as well ask for Denmark back, complete with a Viking focus, in a game that already has Norway as its Viking civ.

By all means suggest Tonga for the Civ VII incarnation of Polynesia/Maori, but I don't see what reason there is to add it to Civ VI.

I agree that the Maori are kind of vicariously representing the other Polynesian cultures and Tonga is unlikely.

However, the Maori do make sense as a matter of representation and marketing. They have the largest population of any Polynesian people, and New Zealand has a larger gaming market than the rest of Polynesian (except maybe Hawai'i, I'm just making a very educated guess based on raw urbanization estimates).

Also, if the idea is to pick cultures which spanned larger territories, New Zealand is larger than the area the Tongan empire occupied. Tonga I agree would have been a better representation of a sort of origination point for all of Polynesian, but as a matter of pure numbers and influence the Maori are a fine pick.

I hope we get Honolulu and/or Tui Tonga as city states. Rapa Nui is a dumb gimmick CS and is a poor representation of smaller kingdoms/empires given that it was an utter failure.

 

[PhilBowles]

I agree that the Maori are kind of vicariously representing the other Polynesian cultures and Tonga is unlikely.

However, the Maori do make sense as a matter of representation and marketing. They have the largest population of any Polynesian people, and New Zealand has a larger gaming market than the rest of Polynesian (except maybe Hawai'i, I'm just making a very educated guess based on raw urbanization estimates).

Also, if the idea is to pick cultures which spanned larger territories, New Zealand is larger than the area the Tongan empire occupied. Tonga I agree would have been a better representation of a sort of origination point for all of Polynesian, but as a matter of pure numbers and influence the Maori are a fine pick.

I hope we get Honolulu and/or Tui Tonga as city states. Rapa Nui is a dumb gimmick CS and is a poor representation of smaller kingdoms/empires given that it was an utter failure.

Oh yes, that's obviously the reasoning: they wanted something that represented Polynesia and had the popular playstyle of Civ V, and making that civ Maori was an easy way to court the New Zealand demographic at the same time. New Zealand still has a small population (Maori or otherwise) and I doubt it's a major gaming demographic that would warrant representation in its own right if it wasn't 'piggybacking' on something Firaxis already wanted to do (represent Polynesia).

 

[PhoenicianGold]

What purpose would there be to adding Tonga in a game that already deliberately represents Polynesian seafaring societies with the Maori? They chose the wrong Polynesian culture to act as the 'face' of Polynesia but it was intended as the same basic civ. They weren't out to represent the Maori as the Maori - just to put a name that wasn't a blob to Polynesia.

You might as well ask for Denmark back, complete with a Viking focus, in a game that already has Norway as its Viking civ.

By all means suggest Tonga for the Civ VII incarnation of Polynesia/Maori, but I don't see what reason there is to add it to Civ VI.

I actually do see some small room for a pacifist tourism oriented civ like Hawai'i, and I guess Tonga could also satisfy that role.

But that is an extreme longshot possibility and even if it did happen it would probably, actually be Hawai'i and not Tonga which got the invitation.

I still haven't ruled out Denmark, btw. Margaret occupies a different time period than both Harald and Kristina, and danish furniture is a thing. Again, a long shot, because I think it would be a stretch to find design space between Sweden and Norway, and there are far more parts of the world people want to see filled before we get a third Scandinavian civ. But Margaret and the Kalmar Union may be something the devs really want to do something with, idunno.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

i think having multiple polynesian civs makes more sense than norway and denmark because polynesia has more cultural differentiation. Denmark and Norway would step on each other’s toes unless you picked a late danish representation

If Maori had been represented in a fashion that wasn’t stepping on the toes of the other polynesian cultures, which were genuinely seafaring, I’d make the case for at least two polynesian civs.

That said, I do think Tonga and/or Hawaii can explore different space than the Maori nonetheless.

Neither needs to start at sea (although it would make more sense for them than it would for the Maori), both can get bonuses to reefs, both can get bonuses to settling small islands (the only geographical feature other than snow yet to be specialized in) and have large, pacifist, culture focuses

 

[Zaarin]

I'd also love to see Margaret I of Denmark, but I'm not thoroughly convinced we need all the Continental Scandinavian civilizations in one game. Maybe in Civ7 we can get Icelandic Vikings and Margaret I of Denmark--and that would still possibly leave an opening for Gustavus Adolphus and Sweden in an expansion or DLC.

 

[PhilBowles]

I actually do see some small room for a pacifist tourism oriented civ like Hawai'i, and I guess Tonga could also satisfy that role.

But that is an extreme longshot possibility and even if it did happen it would probably, actually be Hawai'i and not Tonga which got the invitation.

I still haven't ruled out Denmark, btw. Margaret occupies a different time period than both Harald and Kristina, and danish furniture is a thing. Again, a long shot, because I think it would be a stretch to find design space between Sweden and Norway, and there are far more parts of the world people want to see filled before we get a third Scandinavian civ. But Margaret and the Kalmar Union may be something the devs really want to do something with, idunno.

I agree Denmark has other possibilities, just as Viking Scandinavia and Sweden can co-exist - I used it as an example because two civs to represent Civ V 'Polynesia' would feel very similar to having two civs to represent 'The Vikings'. Maori is just a name to deblob the civ, just as Denmark and Norway have been in different iterations.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

i think having multiple polynesian civs makes more sense than norway and denmark because polynesia has more cultural differentiation. Denmark and Norway would step on each other’s toes unless you picked a late danish representation

If Maori had been represented in a fashion that wasn’t stepping on the toes of the other polynesian cultures, which were genuinely seafaring, I’d make the case for at least two polynesian civs.

That said, I do think Tonga and/or Hawaii can explore different space than the Maori nonetheless.

Neither needs to start at sea (although it would make more sense for them than it would for the Maori), both can get bonuses to reefs, both can get bonuses to settling small islands (the only geographical feature other than snow yet to be specialized in) and have large, pacifist, culture focuses

Yes, I think that is the rub. The Maori with a sea-start and coastal bonuses really makes it hard to find design space for Hawai'i or Tonga. Small possibility they were designed that way to leave space for the Noongar or other aboriginal civ, but I think more likely it was just intended to fill out Polynesia with a single civ.

I also haven't completely ruled out hope for clone civs. For civs which are very culturally related, I could see the devs just reusing assets and making clone civs with variations on the original civ's abilities. Denmark (Norway), Portugal (Spain), and Huns (Scythia) could make for reasonable clone designs. I don't think Hawai'i or Tonga line up as cleanly with the Maori, but the devs needn't be limited to strictly cloning civs; they could make semi-clone or hybrid clone civs too.

I'd also love to see Margaret I of Denmark, but I'm not thoroughly convinced we need all the Continental Scandinavian civilizations in one game. Maybe in Civ7 we can get Icelandic Vikings and Margaret I of Denmark--and that would still possibly leave an opening for Gustavus Adolphus and Sweden in an expansion or DLC.

Yeah I waffle back and forth on Denmark. On the one hand, the Kalmar Union was a really big deal. On the other hand, Denmark didn't quite have the same influence long-term as Norway on the front end or Sweden on the back end. It could comfortably be (and probably should be included as) a city-state. Maybe suzerainty can grant you a unique unit called "Margaret" whose ability captures all of a civ's cities at once.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I hope we get Honolulu and/or Tui Tonga as city states. Rapa Nui is a dumb gimmick CS and is a poor representation of smaller kingdoms/empires given that it was an utter failure.

They wanted to bring the Moai back, and people wanted them back too. That was the only way they could possibly do it.

If Maori had been represented in a fashion that wasn’t stepping on the toes of the other polynesian cultures, which were genuinely seafaring, I’d make the case for at least two polynesian civs.

That said, I do think Tonga and/or Hawaii can explore different space than the Maori nonetheless.

Neither needs to start at sea (although it would make more sense for them than it would for the Maori), both can get bonuses to reefs, both can get bonuses to settling small islands (the only geographical feature other than snow yet to be specialized in) and have large, pacifist, culture focuses

I remember for the Maori livestream they said that they looked at all the Polynesian cultures and decided that the Maori would be the best pick. So I really don't see another one coming.
I also feel like Indonesia has filled the small islands settling role, at least that is part of her agenda.

Still I think there is a possibility to have more than two Polynesian Civs in Civ 7.The wayfinding ability can easily be given to the Tonga, Samoa, Hawaii etc. allowing them to settle different islands. Even the Maori can return with the ability to even start in the ocean again but not return after you find land until Cartography.

Yeah I waffle back and forth on Denmark. On the one hand, the Kalmar Union was a really big deal. On the other hand, Denmark didn't quite have the same influence long-term as Norway on the front end or Sweden on the back end. It could comfortably be (and probably should be included as) a city-state. Maybe suzerainty can grant you a unique unit called "Margaret" whose ability captures all of a civ's cities at once.

If Nassau doesn't get to be Lisbon's city-state replacement, I think Copenhagen can work.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

They wanted to bring the Moai back, and people wanted them back too. That was the only way they could possibly do it.

I know, I know....still not an empire and begs for at least one more Polynesian CS that was actually an empire or kingdom.

I remember for the Maori livestream they said that they looked at all the Polynesian cultures and decided that the Maori would be the best pick. So I really don't see another one coming.
I also feel like Indonesia has filled the small islands settling role, at least that is part of her agenda.

What if, instead of stacking coastal bonuses, Hawai'i can only settle on islands smaller than seven tiles, and then spend the rest of the game sustaining themselves on good nature and ukelele songs?

Still I think there is a possibility to have more than two Polynesian Civs in Civ 7.The wayfinding ability can easily be given to the Tonga, Samoa, Hawaii etc. allowing them to settle different islands. Even the Maori can return with the ability to even start in the ocean again but not return after you find land until Cartography.

That Maori change could be implemented with a patch, honestly. Probably won't happen unless by some miracle the devs are still developing DLC packs two to three years from now, but we've had more substantial changes made to some of the civs.

If Nassau doesn't get to be Lisbon's city-state replacement, I think Copenhagen can work.

I would support either of these. Actually I would hope for both of these.

 

[Bast]

I would like to see Burma/Bagan in the game for the first time ever. I thought it was great that Civ IV had Shwedagon Paya as a wonder it should be brought back also. I think there's a lot of room for religious/military civ with this.

I also want to see Austria in the game, I thought Civ V had this as a great addition and there's a lot of room of diplomatic civ with this.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I mean, England could also easily be a science civ as the originator of the agricultural and industrial revolutions. Instead we gave that and Germany production bonuses.

The difference is that USA since its founding have basically been a science/technology focused "civ" and have dominated that area more than anyone else, having alot of top ranked universities, won most noble prizes, home of many of the big Tech companies, Apple for instance is Worth like the 30 largest companies in Germany. I don't think any other civ can be said to have been so focused on technology as USA through its existance.

Obviously something can be said about military given it have had and maybe still have the strongest military in history but given that military focus is quite recent for USA I don't think it make that much sense and should more be a factor of its strong technology game.

I think Germany and England should be rewarded for having good science but not be really better at it while USA would be good at science but not be as rewarded for it if that make sense.

 

[Reconciliator]

While I would welcome Admiral Yi and his turtle ships, it seems more likely the leader would be for Mongolia, since people have requested a leader for them more often.

Moderator Action: Welcome to CivFanatics. Moved post to Possible New Civilizations thread. leif