[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

To be fair the Iroquois Confederacy were divided during the American Revolution and after that the War of 1812.

Yes, but the Iroquois were a united (and related) polity in the first place.

This begs the question of what would be the chances of having say one of the tribes as a civilization if they wanted to go with someone "new", like Phoenicia or the Maori, but just as a reskinned Carthage and Polynesia.
The best chance I think would be just the Mohawks. You could definitely get Joseph Brant that way.

I'd be on board with this.

 

[Leucarum]

I'd definitely like Civ to feature more New World/African civs. Europe and (somewhat less so) Asia have always been relatively well represented in Civ. To be honest, an expansion that didn't add any from those continents (or at least Europe) would be fine with me...

 

[TeddyMain]

I at least consider the Iroquois more likely than the Plains, because of the Cree, and the Arctic for reasons.

Eh, the Plains still have a lot more room to work with compared to the American NE. Also, what are the reasons for an Arctic civ being unlikely? (Unless you posted them earlier in the thread and I missed them).

 

[Thenewwwguy]

btw ethiopia pass info coming monday according to civ insta

 

[Thenewwwguy]

arctic is literally impossible and when there’s so many different cultures and regional variances in indigenous north america, they really shouldn’t double up on the plains

 

[TeddyMain]

arctic is literally impossible

How, exactly? Not trying to be rude just curious as to why? Lack of leaders? Lack of settlements?

arctic is literally impossible and when there’s so many different cultures and regional variances in indigenous north america, they really shouldn’t double up on the plains

Agreed, that's why I'm not really expecting them. I just stated why I see them as more likely than a NE Native civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Eh, the Plains still have a lot more room to work with compared to the American NE. Also, what are the reasons for an Arctic civ being unlikely? (Unless you posted them earlier in the thread and I missed them).

Basically what @Thenewwwguy said.
We also don't have much info on leaders and major settlements from the people in the Arctic. At least the Dene are related to the Apache/Navajo, the latter just happened to migrate more to the SW U.S.
Also Poundmaker, as a Plains Cree, represents the Plains just fine. I wouldn't want another similar culture. The SW or PNW would be new territory for the devs to explore.

 

[AntSou]

Then we can just cross out the Five Civilized Tribes altogether. Their entire thing was "adaptation instead of resistance." Any FCT leader is going to be dressed in Western-influenced (if not just Western) attire, and most of them are in fact going to be part white.

Yes, that's the only reason I'm more inclined towards Firaxis picking some other tribe. Especially if we end up with only two North American Civs. I think someone from the 16th/17th century might be more likely, someone alive during the early contacts with Europeans.

 

[TeddyMain]

We also don't have much info on leaders and major settlements from the people in the Arctic. At least the Dene are related to the Apache/Navajo, the latter just happened to migrate more to the SW U.S.

For leaders, I can see them going the mythological/legendary route for a leader, like how they chose Gilgamesh for Sumer, Dido for Carthage, and Kupe for the Maori. Ekuehnick maybe? Also I can see them using more modern day Nunavut settlements and maybe just locations with significant culture importance to the Inuit, like Ivvavik. Then again this lack of info does make them less likely than civs with much more info regarding there cultures, so I definitely see where you're coming from.

Also Poundmaker, as a Plains Cree, represents the Plains just fine. I wouldn't want another similar culture. The SW or PNW would be new territory for the devs to explore.

Yeah like I said I agree. It's just that I expect them them more than a NE civ, and even then I see both as pretty unlikely compared to a SW or NW civ.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

if they pick a mythical leader i’d prefer it be one with some historical merit like Hiawatha or Jigonhsasee

How, exactly? Not trying to be rude just curious as to why? Lack of leaders? Lack of settlements?



Agreed, that's why I'm not really expecting them. I just stated why I see them as more likely than a NE Native civ.

arctic natives generally didn’t build large enough settlements, have any large unified nature to them, and no major leaders.

If Greenland and Nunavut ever declare independence and found an Inuit Republic, maybe we can get them a few civ games after that happens

 

[PhoenicianGold]

A Sioux or Iroquois return seems more likely to me? The Sioux especially who haven't been in the game since Civ 2 would certainly *feel* like a new civ (and not necessarily a pure horse raider civ - I'm willing to share my own design to underline this point if needed.)

Question though: if Firaxis were to go for a Muscogean tribe, why wouldn't they just go for the Creek? The Creek call themselves "Muscogee" (which could serve as the name of the civ itself) and while their leader choices might be less interesting than Choktaw/Chikasaw isn't there enough overlap between the four non-Cherokee tribes to join combine them into one single civ with a maybe Cherokee UU. Or would that be on the level of Welsh-speaking woad-painted Brittanic Queen, who received faith from trees and had a Gallic UU and an Irish UB and who settled modern Irish, Cornish, Scottish, Breton, Mancunian and Welsh cities? (nb.: kind of funny how this post also lowkey exploresThe Concepts Zaarin Has A Pavlovian Fear Of. sorry brah)

Secondly, if a 5CT civ were to happen, what would the UU and UI be? The clear contender is the Cahokia Mound but that's already a CS tile improvement (and I don't see Cahokia being included into a Muscogean city list - not if Firaxis has the intention of being historically accurate ). So kindly run me through the options, please. The idea of a 5CT civ intrigues me but in the words of our mighty internet encyclopedia, this article has reached a stub and needs further expansion.

Map-gap theory aside, I think the Iroquois' shot is pretty low, given that they mechanically beg for a very similar niche to the Cree. Trading and scouting bonuses, longhouses basically being mekewaps. I expect the Iroquois about as much as I expect Babylon in VI; maybe included in a last hurrah on principle, but not adding much new mechanically to the game.

The Sioux seem like they could differentiate better from the Cree with teepees and horses, and as far as near-empires go they are just about the best example alongside the Cree. But they are still a northern plains tribe like the Cree and as far as flavor goes I really suspect the devs will be looking elsewhere in the US for something...not plains. That said, I wouldn't mind a Sioux return; even though the Cherokee and Navajo claim more numbers, I think the Sioux are just about the most iconic Amerindian tribal group on the continent.

He is too westernised in his outlook. Since Poundmaker is already in western influenced attire, I'd expect the next NA leader to don more traditional attire.

We could say the same about Pushtamah.

Honestly I'd rather take another Celtic blob over this 5 civilized tribes blob. Not that I want either.
At least the Celtic languages are closer than the Cherokee is to the rest of the Muskogean language.

Well the rub is that this hypothetical Muscogean blob would be just about as appropriate as the Shoshone having a Comanche UU like they had in V. Perhaps even more appropriate because the Five Tribes currently have a strong affiliation, while the Comanche had nothing to do with the Shoshone after they split off. So, really it's a balancing of figuring out how much better a Muscogean tribal blob is than the Shoshone were represented, and if that still lives up to VI's stricter cultural purity standards. (For the record, although I would accept a Muscogean blob--and in fact I would even be able to swallow an Apache civ with a Navajo UU--I don't think it does meet the devs' standards and we will most likely get the Cherokee if anything).

Perhaps. It's not known for certain. Whereas that the Chickasaw are from Chicaza is 100% certain.

As far as VI is concerned I think the certainty doesn't quite matter. We have Kupe.

You'll note I explicitly stated he wasn't corrupt.

Then I suspect it wouldn't matter much as long as he is still venerated by the Cherokee. For the most part the leaders have been presented without the context of their particular administrations, just more generally with their governing values. It's not ideal, but also criticism can be leveled at most administrations for one thing or another; at some point we just have to accept that it's difficult to find a leader who was so perfect that everything else about the administration, the people, and its diplomatic neighbors was completely rosy.

The Cree very strongly look like they were intended to be the Haida and that they went pretty far into development as the Haida.

As far as I recall, we only saw a few things (I think it was the icon?) that were called Haida in the code. Given that the Cree have virtually none of the characteristics one would expect of a Haida civ, I suspect they pivoted fairly early after they started actual development. I expect there's a lot of predevelopment concept art and some discarded mechanics but probably not much more.

(The Tlingit are located almost entirely in Alaska. )

I know, but I count that as Canada for purposes of map-gap. It's north. It's not part of the contiguous US. Canada can have it.

On a related note, though I'm sure I've been on opposite sides of arguments with @PhoenicianGold in the past, I fully support a Bulgaria civ, especially seeing as they had not one, not two, but THREE empires (you know, if you count the more modern Tsardom as an Empire ) and hundreds of years of cultural and military history. I was very pleased to see them pop up in the definitive edition of AOEII, and we have yet to see any of the South Slavic nations appear. They are also probably less controversial than anyone in former Yugoslavia.

THANK YOU good sir! Also, don't forget Magna Bulgaria, so that's three empires plus whatever a Scythian/Hunnic/Magyar blob counts for.

arctic natives generally didn’t build large enough settlements, have any large unified nature to them, and no major leaders.

If Greenland and Nunavut ever declare independence and found an Inuit Republic, maybe we can get them a few civ games after that happens

Greenland is 89 percent Inuit. I wouldn't mind at all if the two were just blobbed together to give the Inuit a city list.

 

[Revanchist]

I wouldn’t mind a civ with a unique district (Entirely new). Something like an agrarian or housing district could add a new dimension to gameplay.

 

[AntSou]

I would really like Tecumseh though, and it's easier to get extended information on 18th/19th century NA leaders, and perhaps more importantly, easier to find proper depictions (though that doesn't seem to have been a problem for highly intricate leaders like Lady Six Sky).

Whatever they do, I think there's a 100% chance the next NA leader will have some form of feathered headgear. So no John Ross.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well the rub is that this hypothetical Muscogean blob would be just about as appropriate as the Shoshone having a Comanche UU like they had in V. Perhaps even more appropriate because the Five Tribes currently have a strong affiliation, while the Comanche had nothing to do with the Shoshone after they split off. So, really it's a balancing of figuring out how much better a Muscogean tribal blob is than the Shoshone were represented, and if that still lives up to VI's stricter cultural purity standards. (For the record, although I would accept a Muscogean blob--and in fact I would even be able to swallow an Apache civ with a Navajo UU--I don't think it does meet the devs' standards and we will most likely get the Cherokee if anything).

I still would rather they not focus a blob civ though based off on the current situation of all of them combined owning about half of the state of Oklahoma in 2020.

The Civ 5 UUs were interesting but I wouldn't say we need to repeat some of the things such as Denmark having Norwegian Ski Infantry, Sweden having Finnish cavalry, and Austria having Hungarian huszars.
Then there were the Byzantine cataphracts.
Funny enough I find these example odder than the Comanche unit for the Shoshone, but I agree they could have still maybe found a better unit.

Also I would think they could find a suitable combat UU for the Apache easier than the Navajo. Of course not that's impossible to find one for the Navajo either.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I would really like Tecumseh though, and it's easier to get extended information on 18th/19th century NA leaders, and perhaps more importantly, easier to find proper depictions (though that doesn't seem to have been a problem for highly intricate leaders like Lady Six Sky).

Whatever they do, I think there's a 100% chance the next NA leader will have some form of feathered headgear. So no John Ross.

Tecumseh leads the Shawnee! And the Wyandot! And the Mingo! And the Ottawas! And the Fox! And the Sauk! And the Piankeshaw! And the Kickapoo! And the Chickamauga! And the Ojibwe! And the Potowatomie! And the Mascouten! And the Creek!

Ah, **** it. Tecumseh leads the Native Americans in Sid Meier's Civilization VI.

The Civ 5 UUs were interesting but I wouldn't say we need to repeat some of the things such as Denmark having Norwegian Ski Infantry, Sweden having Finnish cavalry, and Austria having Hungarian huszars.
Then there were the Byzantine cataphracts.
Funny enough I find these example odder than the Comanche unit for the Shoshone, but I agree they could have still maybe found a better unit.

Oof I forgot about those. V's design was really questionable. I don't think VI gets enough credit for its greater cultural sensitivity.

Also, wouldn't it be cool to have a Helsinki civ with a skiing UU?

Also I would think they could find a suitable combat UU for the Apache easier than the Navajo. Of course not that's impossible to find one for the Navajo either.

Of course they could find a proper Apache UU; including the Navajo would be for the same purpose as the Comanche UU; really just to broaden the representation and catch some additional territory.

 

[AntSou]

Ah, **** it. Tecumseh leads the Native Americans in Sid Meier's Civilization VI.

No. Just Shawnee, but with bonuses to alliances.

 

[Zaarin]

Eh, the Plains still have a lot more room to work with compared to the American NE.

This is 100% not true. The Eastern Woodlands were much more diverse than the Plains (culturally speaking, not linguistically).

As far as I recall, we only saw a few things (I think it was the icon?) that were called Haida in the code. Given that the Cree have virtually none of the characteristics one would expect of a Haida civ, I suspect they pivoted fairly early after they started actual development. I expect there's a lot of predevelopment concept art and some discarded mechanics but probably not much more.

The city art and Cree player colors are 100% Haida. They're referred to as Haida in the code. The civ icon, it turns out, is a case of horrible research on Firaxis' part. It certainly looks Haida, but it's a mask made by a modern Cree artist in imitation of Tsimshian transformation masks. Good job, Firaxis. But I think the evidence points toward the Cree being the Haida until fairly late in the development process.

I would really like Tecumseh though

Speaking of being close to the Cree, the Shawnee were the Cree's next door neighbors and spoke a language very closely related to Cree. Despite his personal appeal as a leader, I'd prefer to see some linguistic diversity; if we're going to have another Algonquian civ I think it should either be an Eastern tribe (like the Powhatan or Massachusetts) or a Plains tribe (the Blackfoot, Arapaho, or Cheyenne), either of which would be much further removed from the Cree.

Whatever they do, I think there's a 100% chance the next NA leader will have some form of feathered headgear.

Then a Plains tribe is the only option because the Plains tribes were the only ones to wear the feathered war bonnets. Personally the Chilkat blankets, wooden hats, and cedar bark clothing of the PNW or the toplock and roach of the Northeast would be just as interesting.

 

[TeddyMain]

This is 100% not true. The Eastern Woodlands were much more diverse than the Plains (culturally speaking, not linguistically).

I meant geographically, not culturally. Physically, the plains have a lot more room to work with than the NE.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

in terms of native leaders alone, tecumseh, seattle and manuelito are by far the ones that are the most interesting to me in terms of who i’d like to see lead a indigenous american civ.

Tecumseh and Manuelito are very appealing to lead the Shawnee and Navajo respectively cuz they resisted colonialism, and Chief Seattle’s fights with the Washingtonian and American governments to protect Native Land rights and protecting the land ecologically are big appeals for him.

Chief Seattle especially could potentially play in a really unique way. He wore clothing similar, although not identical to what Zaarin referenced as well in photographic of him.

 

[Zaarin]

I meant geographically, not culturally. Physically, the plains have a lot more room to work with than the NE.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: TSL is a fine reason to consider a civ, but it's a very poor reason to exclude one. (If the East, Southwest, and Northwest are out, I'd still take a Plateau civ over a Plains civ. At least it wouldn't be 100% another horse-raider civ. Plus Poundmaker has the Plains adequately covered IMO.)