[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

At least Gaul would contrast with Scotland with one being a Stone Age/Classical Celtic group and the other one being based off of a modern day Celtic nation.

The Gauls were a little past the Stone Age. The Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't even in Europe yet until the Bronze Age.

From a purely cynical standpoint (and I do think VI is more cynical than at first blush)

While I don't entirely agree with your map-gap theory, I do agree that Civ6 has been much more aggressive about market-pandering than previous iterations (e.g., Brazil in the base game).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Gauls were a little past the Stone Age. The Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't even in Europe yet until the Bronze Age.

I meant Ancient/Classical/ anything before Middle Ages.

While I don't entirely agree with your map-gap theory, I do agree that Civ6 has been much more aggressive about market-pandering than previous iterations (e.g., Brazil in the base game).

I mean Brazil was hosting the 2016 Olympics. I think that had some influence in their decision as well.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean Brazil was hosting the 2016 Olympics. I think that had some influence in their decision as well.

That's what I mean, though. That's still market pandering. Brazil wouldn't have even been considered as a base game civ in Civ5, for instance, yet four years in we have Brazil and still no Portugal (which may or may not be coming in NFP).

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Scotland has a higher population. As far as I can tell, if the point of map-gap is to try to rein in casual consumers who identify with or are adjacent to as-yet-unrepresented cultural heritages, then Ireland and Scotland were rough equivalents, and Scotland got the edge for casting a slightly wider net and having a slightly more resonant UI option (i.e. the golf course). I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a very close contest.

Firstly, I don’t think nationalism nor map-gap are the only considerations that the devs take. I’m sure they could be considerations, but i don’t think Ethiopia does either necessarily, as i’m sure it’s possible that a lot of ethiopians play civ but i doubt it (not to mention 44.5% of Ethiopians —the Oromo, dislike Menelik a lot)

I’m sure they’re large considerations but not massive ones.

Also, With ireland, they could’ve gone with a coastal monastery or a pub, both of which would be equally resonant as a golf course.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I mean Brazil was hosting the 2016 Olympics. I think that had some influence in their decision as well.

In general Brazil was showing signs of elevating itself to near-power status over the past decade. It also hosted the World Cup in 2014. If another civ deserved to be a "modern power" on top of America, Russia, China, and India, Brazil was the next obvious choice, especially since it serves as the dominant power on the otherwise empty South America. I think it makes quite a lot of sense as a base game civ.

Firstly, I don’t think nationalism nor map-gap are the only considerations that the devs take. I’m sure they could be considerations, but i don’t think Ethiopia does either necessarily, as i’m sure it’s possible that a lot of ethiopians play civ but i doubt it (not to mention 44.5% of Ethiopians —the Oromo, dislike Menelik a lot)

Oh I think Ethiopia absolutely plays into map-gaps. It covers a large bit of the horn of Africa and a rather large Ethiopian diaspora. Even neglecting Haile Selassie's legacy among Rastifarianism in the western hemisphere, Washington D.C. has the highest population of Ethiopians outside of Ethiopia in the world. It is easily one of the largest African demographics the devs could have pandered to in the States.

You're right that Menelik is an odd choice, but leader or not Ethiopia suited map-gap, the same way that Sweden did, regardless of whether it was led by Kristina.

Also, With ireland, they could’ve gone with a coastal monastery or a pub, both of which would be equally resonant as a golf course.

Monstaries aren't fun(!) though and haven't had the same global effect as golf courses. Pubs, as much as I want to see them, are a bit too adult. The golf course is family-friendly and more uniquely Scottish than monasteries or pubs are uniquely Irish. It was just overall a more effortless design to implement.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Argmagh could still represent Northern Ireland, technically. Also I don't think the Welsh were ever a contender.

I don't see Ireland without Armagh for several reasons.
1. Armagh has always been part of the country of Ireland only up until the split of Northern Ireland to the U.K. from the rest which is only about 100 years ago.
2. It's also the home of the legendary St. Patrick who really embodies the Irish spirit, especially in America.
3. The icon is a shamrock/four leaf clover which also embodies Ireland.
I know the Welsh would be the last ones they would consider but it would still seem funny if we had all of countries encompassing the British Isles except the Welsh, which is why I said that.
Though I am also in agreement with you that Scotland is supposed to represent the Celts this time around. But I think in order of possible appearances my point was it would most likely go Gaul>Ireland>Wales after Scotland in that order.

Firstly, I don’t think nationalism nor map-gap are the only considerations that the devs take. I’m sure they could be considerations, but i don’t think Ethiopia does either necessarily, as i’m sure it’s possible that a lot of ethiopians play civ but i doubt it (not to mention 44.5% of Ethiopians —the Oromo, dislike Menelik a lot)

I’m sure they’re large considerations but not massive ones.

Also, With ireland, they could’ve gone with a coastal monastery or a pub, both of which would be equally resonant as a golf course.

That honestly might be why they chose the Oromo cavalry as Ethiopia's unique. It represent the largest ethnic group and is also distinct from the other parts of Ethiopian history.
They already covered Classical Aksum Ethiopia in the Civ ability, medieval ethiopia with the infrastructure, and of course modern Ethiopia with Menelik.

In general Brazil was showing signs of elevating itself to near-power status over the past decade. It also hosted the World Cup in 2014. If another civ deserved to be a "modern power" on top of America, Russia, China, and India, Brazil was the next obvious choice, especially since it serves as the dominant power on the otherwise empty South America. I think it makes quite a lot of sense as a base game civ.

I won't disagree with that either. It was definitely going to be in the game and the relevance of the Olympics and World Cup a couple of years earlier helped out as well.

Monstaries aren't fun(!) though and haven't had the same global effect as golf courses. Pubs, as much as I want to see them, are a bit too adult. The golf course is family-friendly and more uniquely Scottish than monasteries or pubs are uniquely Irish. It was just overall a more effortless design to implement.

I was initially taken back by the golf course but then I learned it was invented in Scotland and interestingly enough there is more land dedicated to golf courses per square mile in Scotland, than any other country.
Personally I would have preferred maybe a Loch Castle. But I don't know how practical it would have been to build a castle in the middle of a lake on an island.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Oh I think Ethiopia absolutely plays into map-gaps. It covers a large bit of the horn of Africa and a rather large Ethiopian diaspora. Even neglecting Haile Selassie's legacy among Rastifarianism in the western hemisphere, Washington D.C. has the highest population of Ethiopians outside of Ethiopia in the world. It is easily one of the largest African demographics the devs could have pandered to in the States.

Ethiopia takes up a space in NE Africa that Nubia already took up and I don’t think it necessarily was necessary considering the close ties Axum had with Nubia.

Additionally, I can see that, but Kenya and Tanzania have larger populations than the ethiopian diaspora, as does Nigeria, so the Swahili or Yoruba or Benin could’ve made just as much sense for the popularity side of it.

Monstaries aren't fun(!) though and haven't had the same global effect as golf courses. Pubs, as much as I want to see them, are a bit too adult. The golf course is family-friendly and more uniquely Scottish than monasteries or pubs are uniquely Irish. It was just overall a more effortless design to implement.

those just sound like excuses. Golf Courses don’t strike me as uniquely scottish, while pubs feel more uniquely irish. I don’t think they’re ‘not family friendly’ in a game about conquering tbh. If Monastaries aren’t ‘fun’ neither are most UIs in this game lol

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I agree with you, but previous designs of the Celts in Civ3, Civ4, and Civ5 make me nervous about what Firaxis will do with the civ. Changing the name to be more specific could be a way to change the expectations of both the developers and the fans.

As for the previous designs of The Celts in the series especially in Civ V I agree too. This is what I also wrote in my previous comments. And many opinions on them are based on their previous design, not their real potential for the game. I just wanted to break this wall a little.

 

[Zaarin]

Monstaries aren't fun(!) though and haven't had the same global effect as golf courses.

The fact that you're literate says otherwise.

3. The icon is a shamrock/four leaf clover which also embodies Ireland.

I'd expect Ireland's symbol would be a trinity knot.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ethiopia takes up a space in NE Africa that Nubia already took up and I don’t think it necessarily was necessary considering the close ties Axum had with Nubia.

Additionally, I can see that, but Kenya and Tanzania have larger populations than the ethiopian diaspora, as does Nigeria, so the Swahili or Yoruba or Benin could’ve made just as much sense for the popularity side of it.

I think map gap theory is there except obviously when it might occur to recurring and popular Civs such as Ethiopia. This will be it's 3rd appearance and quite frankly it is frequently lauded by the fans and players that it should have been the Sub-Saharan representation in the original game over the Zulu due to it's long history.
That's why I also think Portugal and the Byzantines will eventually get in even if they overlap geographically with other civs. The same goes for a civ from Mesopotamia.

those just sound like excuses. Golf Courses don’t strike me as uniquely scottish, while pubs feel more uniquely irish. I don’t think they’re ‘not family friendly’ in a game about conquering tbh. If Monastaries aren’t ‘fun’ neither are most UIs in this game lol

I agree that Golf courses aren't uniquely Scottish, at least no more than Film Studios are located exclusively in the U.S. At least modern day golf was invented in Scotland and they have more land dedicated to golf courses, relative to their size, than any other country does.
Not sure about the pub being in the game as it might not sit well and make the rating go up. A lot people joke and say the reason golf course is in the game is because it's their way of putting a "family friendly pub" in the game by letting it give out amenities, gold, and culture.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I don't see Ireland without Armagh for several reasons.
1. Armagh has always been part of the country of Ireland only up until the split of Northern Ireland to the U.K. from the rest which is only about 100 years ago.
2. It's also the home of the legendary St. Patrick who really embodies the Irish spirit, especially in America.
3. The icon is a shamrock/four leaf clover which also embodies Ireland.
I know the Welsh would be the last ones they would consider but it would still seem funny if we had all of countries encompassing the British Isles except the Welsh, which is why I said that.
Though I am also in agreement with you that Scotland is supposed to represent the Celts this time around. But I think in order of possible appearances my point was it would most likely go Gaul>Ireland>Wales after Scotland in that order.

I don't disagree with any of this and think Ireland's chances are quite slim. I just think they are still better than the Gauls'.

Ethiopia takes up a space in NE Africa that Nubia already took up and I don’t think it necessarily was necessary considering the close ties Axum had with Nubia.

Additionally, I can see that, but Kenya and Tanzania have larger populations than the ethiopian diaspora, as does Nigeria, so the Swahili or Yoruba or Benin could’ve made just as much sense for the popularity side of it.

Ethiopia was always a much better sell than Nubia; I never viewed Nubia as replacing Ethiopia so much as being "Egypt-again" because Egypt is a popular region.

At any rate, of the two Nubia was always superfluous. I thought it was superfluous when it was announced three years ago too, and I still think it is one of the most superfluous civs in the game. So when people argue that we can't get both Bulgaria and Byzantium, or both Burma and Vietnam, or two more American civs, I'm just gonna slap down: NUBIA! We have Nubia.

those just sound like excuses. Golf Courses don’t strike me as uniquely scottish, while pubs feel more uniquely irish. I don’t think they’re ‘not family friendly’ in a game about conquering tbh. If Monastaries aren’t ‘fun’ neither are most UIs in this game lol

Pubs feel more generally British to me than strictly Irish. Golf is very Scottish, though.

The devs have definitely been leaning toward more "fun" UIs in VI than in V, where they can find them. We have the Tlachti, the Hockey Rink, the Carnival/Copacabana, Thermal Baths, Open Air Museum... I think the idea still has to be fairly pervasive but between an amenities and a religious UI, I think the devs would generally choose the former if it were available.

The fact that you're literate says otherwise.

Okay, a more self-evident global effect. The effect of golf around the world is generally more apparent to the average consumer. Many people have attempted golf of some sort; far fewer have gone to church to look for books to read.

 

[Zaarin]

Not sure about the pub being in the game as it might not sit well and make the rating go up.

Wine and Tobacco are already luxuries in the game, and Châteaux give luxury-adjacency bonuses because châteaux are famous for being vineyards. So alcohol is already there as far as ratings are concerned.

Pubs feel more generally British to me than strictly Irish. Golf is very Scottish, though.

Agreed.

Okay, a more self-evident global effect. The effect of golf around the world is generally more apparent to the average consumer. Many people have attempted golf of some sort; far fewer have gone to church to look for books to read.

Fair, but really with Ireland I feel like the devs have two choices: make the civ appeal to history nerds who understand Ireland's role in Insular art, the preservation of literacy, and the Carolingian Renaissance OR go absurdly silly and appeal to pop culture memes and 90s Pan-Celtic Nationalism. Even given the dev's obvious preference for "fun," I think they're smart enough to know the latter will be less cute in 2020 than it was 2000. So if we do get Ireland--which I think is a slim chance--I'm expecting an Early Middle Ages civ built around Iona and the Book of Kells. Oh, and hey, there's our pop culture reference.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Okay, a more self-evident global effect. The effect of golf around the world is generally more apparent to the average consumer. Many people have attempted golf of some sort; far fewer have gone to church to look for books to read.

Does mini-golf, frisbee golf, or the Wii count? Because if not than I've done the latter way more.

Pubs feel more generally British to me than strictly Irish. Golf is very Scottish, though.

The devs have definitely been leaning toward more "fun" UIs in VI than in V, where they can find them. We have the Tlachti, the Hockey Rink, the Carnival/Copacabana, Thermal Baths, Open Air Museum... I think the idea still has to be fairly pervasive but between an amenities and a religious UI, I think the devs would generally choose the former if it were available.

I'm pretty sure pubs were found in Medieval Ireland before they made their first appearances on Great Britain unless I'm mistaken.

As for amenities over a religious UI, like a hippodrome for Byzantines.

Wine and Tobacco are already luxuries in the game, and Châteaux give luxury-adjacency bonuses because châteaux are famous for being vineyards. So alcohol is already there as far as ratings are concerned.

Maybe but those seem less subtle to me for some reasons, well maybe not the tobacco. Especially because you can easily just eat the grapes or not ferment the juice.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I agree that Golf courses aren't uniquely Scottish, at least no more than Film Studios are located exclusively in the U.S. At least modern day golf was invented in Scotland and they have more land dedicated to golf courses, relative to their size, than any other country does.

The difference is, if you tell an American that film studios aren’t unique to the US, the response is likely to be “meh.”

But if you go to St. Andrews and tell them golf isn’t uniquely Scottish, you’re likely to get your teeth bashed in.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I'm pretty sure pubs were found in Medieval Ireland before they made their first appearances on Great Britain unless I'm mistaken.

What’s your support for this? English pubs can trace their heritage back to Roman tabernae and Saxon mead-halls and ale houses, although the term “public house” wasn’t used until the Georgian period.

I would suspect that Irish pubs grew up concurrently with their English counterparts.

Brewers and innkeepers are ridiculously old trades, dating back to Mesopotamia, so I doubt they were a new innovation anywhere in the British Isles, not omitting Ireland.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The difference is, if you tell an American that film studios aren’t unique to the US, the response is likely to be “meh.”

But if you go to St. Andrews and tell them golf isn’t uniquely Scottish, you’re likely to get your teeth bashed in.

At this point are Highlanders even uniquely Scottish after Georgia's Khevsurs and now Ethiopia?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What’s your support for this? English pubs can trace their heritage back to Roman tabernae and Saxon mead-halls and ale houses, although the term “public house” wasn’t used until the Georgian period.

I would suspect that Irish pubs grew up concurrently with their English counterparts.

Brewers and innkeepers are ridiculously old trades, dating back to Mesopotamia, so I doubt they were a new innovation anywhere in the British Isles, not omitting Ireland.

Apparently the oldest "pub" could be traced back to the 10th century in Ireland and is at least a millennium year old while one in Dublin can be traced back to 1198.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean's_Bar
I guess if mead halls and ale houses would be considered the same thing than it wouldn't count though as first appearing in Ireland.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Fair, but really with Ireland I feel like the devs have two choices: make the civ appeal to history nerds who understand Ireland's role in Insular art, the preservation of literacy, and the Carolingian Renaissance OR go absurdly silly and appeal to pop culture memes and 90s Pan-Celtic Nationalism. Even given the dev's obvious preference for "fun," I think they're smart enough to know the latter will be less cute in 2020 than it was 2000. So if we do get Ireland--which I think is a slim chance--I'm expecting an Early Middle Ages civ built around Iona and the Book of Kells. Oh, and hey, there's our pop culture reference.

Eh I feel like more people saw Song of the Sea than Secret of Kells. I would agree that if we got Ireland it would likely not be as pop culture-ish as Scotland, if only to make the two feel more different from each other, as you observed earlier. I think it's generally a lot easier to translate "sports culture" to unique infrastructure than "party culture."

Does mini-golf, frisbee golf, or the Wii count? Because if not than I've done the latter way more.

I was at least counting mini-golf and virtual games. But I suppose frisbee golf counts as another offshoot (and is, to be fair, far more accessible than actual golf).

As for amenities over a religious UI, like a hippodrome for Byzantines.

Precisely my thoughts about that. And water puppet theaters.

 

[Zaarin]

Maybe but those seem less subtle to me for some reasons, well maybe not the tobacco. Especially because you can easily just eat the grapes or not ferment the juice.

I mean, the luxury is literally called Wine. (Also, I don't think wine grapes are eaten much on their own--except the leaves, of course.)

Eh I feel like more people saw Song of the Sea than Secret of Kells.

I haven't seen either, but I've heard The Secret of Kells praised a lot. It means the Book of Kells at least has some pop culture appeal, anyway.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

‘Hurling Field’ for irish Ui, Anyone?