[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[reddishrecue]

Not sure if that would count as "re-introduced" but I made a similar suggestion for maybe introducing a single tribe of the confederacy, such as the Mohawk. At this point I wouldn't count it out after Phoenicia over Carthage, or unexpected Gaul.

I expected Celts but not Gaul.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I expected Celts but not Gaul.

Well most people expected Gaul though before an overarching Celts civ.

 

[Zaarin]

The problem is if Assyria gets a female leader then that would make it to where all three ancient era leaders would be basically fictionalized as Semiramas, or Shammuramat, would definitely have to be to have any sort of leader ability based on mythology.

What is wrong with that?

Assyria has a list a mile long of great leader choices. Choosing a Greek mythical figure to lead it is like choosing Lady Liberty to lead America just because "she's female."

I don't loathe the idea considering if that's how we get Assyria I still would take it. But when there is Ashurbanipal, Sennacherib, and Tiglath Pileser III and others who we know more about she's at the bottom of my wish list.

TBH if Semiramis is the only way we get Assyria, I'd frankly rather have nothing at all. To me having Semiramis, a Greek myth, lead Assyria would be patently offensive--every bit on the same level as Pocahontas leading the Powhatan.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Assyria has a list a mile long of great leader choices. Choosing a Greek mythical figure to lead it is like choosing Lady Liberty to lead America just because "she's female."


TBH if Semiramis is the only way we get Assyria, I'd frankly rather have nothing at all. To me having Semiramis, a Greek myth, lead Assyria would be patently offensive--every bit on the same level as Pocahontas leading the Powhatan.

We have Dido, who was effectively a Roman myth. I really think you're holding the game to a standard it has never held itself to.

I sympathize, of course, but I also don't know what we are expected to do about "Pop History: The Game." The series only ever makes incremental strides toward accuracy because that frankly doesn't sell as well as resonance.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

TBH if Semiramis is the only way we get Assyria, I'd frankly rather have nothing at all. To me having Semiramis, a Greek myth, lead Assyria would be patently offensive--every bit on the same level as Pocahontas leading the Powhatan.

Would her being called Shammuramat be a little better, which is the name I was at least implying? Not that I'm advocating for it but at least it wouldn't be the mythological one from Greek origin.

Of course the problem is finding an ability that probably wasn't in the Greek myths, which I don't think you could.

 

[SirMediocrity]

We have Dido, who was effectively a Roman myth. I really think you're holding the game to a standard it has never held itself to.

To be fair, Semiramis doesn't have nearly the same amount of popularity as Dido or Gilgamesh (although I suppose Kupe might be less popular than Semiramis).

And before anyone asks, I'd like to clarify that I'm not a fan of any of the game's mythical-esc leaders. I'd prefer if Phoenicia/Carthage were led by Hannibal, the Maori were led by Hongi Hika, and the Sumerians led by Ur-Nammu or maybe a more historical-based Gilgamesh.

 

[Zaarin]

We have Dido, who was effectively a Roman myth. I really think you're holding the game to a standard it has never held itself to.

Though there's no direct textual evidence, historians are in general agreement that Dido was also a Phoenician myth, and since Josephus has been born out on Pygmalion's historicity it's entirely possible Dido existed as well (though I do remain somewhat skeptical). One notes the game makes no reference to her immolating herself for Rome's progenitor. Semiramis, on the other hand, is 100% Greek, and a rather slanderous myth to boot.

I sympathize, of course, but I also don't know what we are expected to do about "Pop History: The Game." The series only ever makes incremental strides toward accuracy because that frankly doesn't sell as well as resonance.

There's plenty of pop history about Assyria without resorting to Semiramis. Go to a museum with Renaissance paintings and count the depictions of Sennacherib at the gates of Jerusalem.

Would her being called Shammuramat be a little better, which is the name I was at least implying? Not that I'm advocating for it but at least it wouldn't be the mythological one from Greek origin.

Of course the problem is finding an ability that probably wasn't in the Greek myths, which I don't think you could.

That's the rub: Shammuramat accomplished nothing of note. Even her existence is only attested on a stele that spends more time talking about her husband and son. I don't see anyone clamoring for William Henry Harrison or Louis XVI or Emperor Hui of Jin.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

To be fair, Semiramis doesn't have nearly the same amount of popularity as Dido or Gilgamesh (although I suppose Kupe might be less popular than Semiramis).

She was important enough in classical revivalism to be a point of comparison for Margaret I of Denmark, Christina of Sweden, and Catherine the Great. Granted, still the Greek myth, but she arguably had a more significant legacy than Dido.

And before anyone asks, I'd like to clarify that I'm not a fan of any of the game's mythical-esc leaders. I'd prefer if Phoenicia/Carthage were led by Hannibal, the Maori were led by Hongi Hika, and the Sumerians led by Ur-Nammu or maybe a more historical-based Gilgamesh.

Given that I see inclusions of characters like Dido and Tomyris as largely perpetuating European mythologization of non-European cultures, I don't see how Shammuramat would represent anything that the devs haven't already done. I too agree that mythical leaders, particularly those which were not really representative of their native culture, are lazy. I am fine with Gilgamesh as an actual Mesopotamian culture hero, especially since Sumeria is supposed to be reaching back as far as we can into civilization.

I'm quite happy we didn't get Hannibal though. I get tired of the same tired hyper-miliaristic tour of European history through Alexander, Hannibal, Napoleon, etc. Given that they didn't do a good job with Dido in V, I am fine that they took another stab with Phoenicia, and I think they did the civ justice. Now I am satisfied and would be willing to move back to Carthage in the next game.

 

[Zaarin]

Given that I see inclusions of characters like Dido and Tomyris as largely perpetuating European mythologization of non-European cultures, I don't see how Shammuramat would represent anything that the devs haven't already done.

Tomyris' name is Iranian so if she didn't exist as a queen it's quite probable that she was an Iranian goddess or hero. +1 for Dido. The Assyrians, who left a literal hoard of documents, on the other hand, had no myths about Semiramis nor even a history about Shammuramat (except a single broken stele). In particular, as I said above, Dido in game makes no references to the Aeneid.

I'm quite happy we didn't get Hannibal though. I get tired of the same tired hyper-miliaristic tour of European history through Alexander, Hannibal, Napoleon, etc.

He was mostly focused on civil and economic matters during his suffetship; he doesn't have to be portrayed as a general. I am pleased that choosing Phoenicia and Dido allowed them to paint a more accurate portrait of Phoenicia, but they didn't have to use Dido (or Phoenicia) to do that. More to the topic at hand, Semiramis wouldn't portray Assyria any more accurately than Gilgamesh portrays Sumer.


Something I've been pondering lately is how poorly in general Civ6 has done with its Ancient and to a lesser extent Classical civs/leaders. I know Ed's particular interest is the Medieval/Renaissance, but I wish they'd get someone on the team with a little more love for what came before.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Something I've been pondering lately is how poorly in general Civ6 has done with its Ancient and to a lesser extent Classical civs/leaders. I know Ed's particular interest is the Medieval/Renaissance, but I wish they'd get someone on the team with a little more love for what came before.

Well if they insist, I'm available.
Of course I won't get rid of Alexander.

 

[Zaarin]

Well if they insist, I'm available.
Of course I won't get rid of Alexander.

If you'll give me enough better designed Ancient civs and leaders, you can add a whole flock of Classical Hellenes as far as I'm concerned.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Tomyris' name is Iranian so if she didn't exist as a queen it's quite probable that she was an Iranian goddess or hero. +1 for Dido. The Assyrians, who left a literal hoard of documents, on the other hand, had no myths about Semiramis nor even a history about Shammuramat (except a single broken stele). In particular, as I said above, Dido in game makes no references to the Aeneid.

Eh, I still think that's kind of splitting hairs. The sort of European orientalism that kept Dido and Tomyris alive in mythologized history is pretty close, if not identical, to that which memorialized Semiramis/Shammuramat. From my perspective, they all have paltry but still evident historical existence, and none of them seem a totally fair representation of their culture as "exotic queen" tropes.

We, of course, make do with what historical records we have, which weren't always kept by the cultures in question. And I sympathize that Assyria is especially frustrating for historians because of the wealth of real history to draw from. But I still think Shammuramat is very much in the same camp as Dido and Tomyris and is likely being considered on the short list precisely because she is one of the few very recognizable Assyrian figures in pop history.

He was mostly focused on civil and economic matters during his suffetship; he doesn't have to be portrayed as a general. I am pleased that choosing Phoenicia and Dido allowed them to paint a more accurate portrait of Phoenicia, but they didn't have to use Dido (or Phoenicia) to do that. More to the topic at hand, Semiramis wouldn't portray Assyria any more accurately than Gilgamesh portrays Sumer.

And yet...we have Gilgamesh portraying Sumer. And Dido portraying Phoenicia. The devs clearly have some sort of bias toward legendary figures mythologized in European classicism. I'm not trying to make a value judgment on whether that is a good thing or not, but it is very clearly something they either prefer personally or think sells Civ games.

Something I've been pondering lately is how poorly in general Civ6 has done with its Ancient and to a lesser extent Classical civs/leaders. I know Ed's particular interest is the Medieval/Renaissance, but I wish they'd get someone on the team with a little more love for what came before.

So far it hasn't pushed into outright offensive to me, and the creative liberty is kind of fun from a casual perspective. But the cost of doing so is hefty, and I do sometimes wonder if it is worth it.

 

[Zaarin]

We, of course, make do with what historical records we have, which weren't always kept by the cultures in question. And I sympathize that Assyria is especially frustrating for historians because of the wealth of real history to draw from. But I still think Shammuramat is very much in the same camp as Dido and Tomyris and is likely being considered on the short list precisely because she is one of the few very recognizable Assyrian figures in pop history.

This is indeed the major difference. Everything we know about Scythia, except what archaeology and a few askance Persian references can tell us, comes via the Greeks. The Phoenicians had writing, but most inscriptions are brief and either records or tomb inscriptions--not much in the way of biographical detail. The Assyrians, on the other hand, wrote long, elaborate histories, and we know a great deal about their kings. I do understand what you're saying, but you hit the nail on the head about why I feel like Assyria is different.

And yet...we have Gilgamesh portraying Sumer. And Dido portraying Phoenicia. The devs clearly have some sort of bias toward legendary figures mythologized in European classicism. I'm not trying to make a value judgment on whether that is a good thing or not, but it is very clearly something they either prefer personally or think sells Civ games.

I can live with Dido, but Gilgamesh is precisely why I want something better for Assyria (or Babylon). If we had a more authentic Sumer, I'd be more prepared to roll my eyes and let it go over Semiramis.

So far it hasn't pushed into outright offensive to me, and the creative liberty is kind of fun from a casual perspective. But the cost of doing so is hefty, and I do sometimes wonder if it is worth it.

I wouldn't call any of it so far offensive, just a little disappointing. Overall, Phoenicia's design is perfect. I like Tomyris, even if I don't personally think she existed. I hate Gilgamesh's visual and gameplay design, but I'm actually okay with him in a vacuum--the Epic of Gilgamesh was very historically important, probably more important than the historical king whose name it bears. Semiramis is where it crosses the line to offensive for me: the myths surrounding her were rather sexist and rather slanderous towards Asians (using the Greek sense of the word). There was at least some level of respect, however begrudging and exoticized, in the myths of Dido and Tomyris.

 

[pokiehl]

Huh? What Semiramis stories are offensive?

 

[Zaarin]

Huh? What Semiramis stories are offensive?

She's essentially portrayed as a brutal, bloodthirsty sex-maniac in many of her myths. It's probable that the Greeks conflated her with Ishtar, come to think of it.

 

[8housesofelixir]

It's probable that the Greeks conflated her with Ishtar

Hmmmm, that is an interesting speculation. To my knowledge, the majority of Ishtar/Inanna tales, especially those concerning with her fickle and courageous personality, didn't transmitted to the Greeks (or to the Bible, another place where a lot of Ishtar tales ended up). But the figure of Semiramis in the Greek literature does have some (definitely not all) personality traits similar to Ishtar's.

If that is the case, I personally don't mind having a Ishtar-based Semiramis in the game - Ishtar is the mythological figure I like the most - as long as the devs try to make some Ishtar references in Semiramis' lines or agendas, or even make a special interaction between her and Gilgamesh (which is something very, very unlikely, to be honest).

 

[Zaarin]

Ishtar is the mythological figure I like the most

Mesopotamian gods were a special kind of horrifying, and of all of them Ishtar is the most so. It does make her interesting, though.

even make a special interaction between her and Gilgamesh

He did make the wise choice not to sleep with her (Ishtar)--wise since most of her lovers end up dead. I guess she tried to kill him anyway.

 

[AaronTBD]

I think Gauls Unique Unit is a replacement of the warrior cause of this part of the video

If you look top right you can see it, also I'm pretty sure this is a new game.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think Gauls Unique Unit is a replacement of the warrior cause of this part of the video
View attachment 569273
If you look top right you can see it, also I'm pretty sure this is a new game.

that feels pretty early, ngl. I would’ve expected swordsman or spearman.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think Gauls Unique Unit is a replacement of the warrior cause of this part of the video
View attachment 569273
If you look top right you can see it, also I'm pretty sure this is a new game.

I noticed that as well. But the unit appears to use the Spearman as a base for the models. I think it's either an anti-cav warrior replacement or a Spearman, but Gaul starts with them instead of Warriors.