[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

I agree with the rest of the statement but I still am not sure if it's the best unique unit for them. If the Mong Dong plays like Civ 5's turtle ship it would be just as reminiscent of a defensive civ.

Plus I feel like it would make more sense if it was a Spec Ops replacement, in the recon line, than a standard melee infantry unit which might not be the best.

I can see Trung Trac’s ability being kinda like Suleiman‘s in that we get Trung Nhi as a starting Great General and the Mon Dong as a LUU, with the Vietcong as a UU.

if it was a spec ops replacement it would be essentially useless, even more so than an infantry replacement, which is my main concern

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Like Trung Nhi?


As far as I know the Vietcong was officially formed after the First Indochina war so they already achieved independence from France. That doesn't mean there weren't groups of infantry using guerilla tactics against France though.

I agree with the rest of the statement but I still am not sure if it's the best unique unit for them. If the Mong Dong plays like Civ 5's turtle ship it would be just as reminiscent of a defensive civ.

Plus I feel like it would make more sense if it was a Spec Ops replacement, in the recon line, than a standard melee infantry unit which might not be the best.

I wouldn't be surprised if we got a Vietcong UU because a sizeable portion of Vietnam's appeal is American obsession over modern warmongering and it's certainly the most resonant choice the devs could go with. But I would definitely be disappointed if the devs chose to focus on only a few decades of Vietnam as a modern underdog, where it has two milennia of history to draw from. I would prefer anything but the Vietcong.

 

[8housesofelixir]

if it was a spec ops replacement it would be essentially useless, even more so than an infantry replacement, which is my main concern

The problem with Recon class units is that they require promotions to be good but it is very hard to level them up.

If there is a civ ability that can made every Recon class units starting with both "Camouflage" and "Ambush" promotions they can be insanely strong.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I can see Trung Trac’s ability being kinda like Suleiman‘s in that we get Trung Nhi as a starting Great General and the Mon Dong as a LUU, with the Vietcong as a UU.

The Mong Dong as far as I'm aware were after the Trung Sister's time, first appearing in the Medieval Era, so it doesn't make sense as a LUU.

Anyway the Comandante General are considered a LUU for Simon Bolivar so that is why I think Trung Nhi would make a good LUU.

The problem with Recon class units is that they require promotions to be good but it is very hard to level them up.

If there is a civ ability that can made every Recon class units starting with both "Camouflage" and "Ambush" promotions they can be insanely strong.

That sounds like what the Iroquois could do. Or better yet make their melee units act like that.

 

[8housesofelixir]

That sounds like what the Iroquois could do. Or better yet make their melee units act like that.

Cree does have an unique Scout replacement that has the same combat strength as a Warrior.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Cree does have an unique Scout replacement that has the same combat strength as a Warrior.

Right. But I think the Iroquois would have a Musketman replacement with maybe something similar to ambush or some sort of promotion that recon units get.

 

[AaronTBD]

Would a North Asia civ be interesting like the Yakut, the Ainu, the Buryats, or Tuva?

 

[notNamed]

Would a North Asia civ be interesting like the Yakut, the Ainu, the Buryats, or Tuva?

My first and obvious pick are the Jurchens/Manchu. Folks have a really long and strongly influential history.
Other than that, Yakut would be my other choice. Having a Turkic nation that's not Ottomans, being Siberians and all that. The only issue with those is that you're in the Native Indian territory with them without all too many buildings, large empires or somehow well known fighting tactics/units. But I mean, we've got a boatload of Ameridnians already, so why not some Siberians as well?

Speaking of well-know things militarily Vietnamese, other than the boats and Viet Cong, they have had a good reputation with the Chinese for their muskets and jingals. Not sure how I feel about elephants. I'd have to ask 8housesofelixir to make sure, but the picture of old Vietnamese armies I currently have is one where extrapolating the elephants is basically an influence of Romance of the Three Kingdoms' stories. At least prior to the conquest of Champa (Mongols make a special note of fighting elephants when conquering Dali, but no such mention in the wars in Vietnam), since they certainly did have some elephant corps at a time, but again reduced them to baggage carriers/arena performers by the Nguyen Dynasty.

 

[Zaarin]

Would a North Asia civ be interesting like the Yakut, the Ainu, the Buryats, or Tuva?

Jurchen or Manchu might be interesting, but China would surely disapprove. If we have to have a Tundra civ, the Evenks get my vote. Yakutian horses are kind of adorable, though...

we've got a boatload of Ameridnians already

It must be a very small boat to only fit one.

The only issue with those is that you're in the Native Indian territory with them without all too many buildings, large empires or somehow well known fighting tactics/units.

The Iroquois, Eastern Algonquians, Mississippians, Five Civilized Tribes, Puebloans, PNW tribes, etc. disagree with your assessment. Not all indigenous Americans were nomadic.

 

[notNamed]

It must be a very small boat to only fit one.

But we have had literally all of them in Civ 4. https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Native_American_(Civ4)
Still, we have had Cree, Hodinoshoni, Sioux, Shoshones, Aztecs, Maya, Inca and Mapuche. And that's ignoring Civ4: Colonisation (adding Apache, Arawak, Cherokee and Tupi). Siberia hasn't had a single civ yet.

The Iroquois, Eastern Algonquians, Mississippians, Five Civilized Tribes, Puebloans, PNW tribes, etc. disagree with your assessment. Not all indigenous Americans were nomadic.

Many of the ones we've already seen covered were, however. So the people are familiar with the challenges of making a full civilisation with the stuff Civ games ask of you.

 

[Zaarin]

But we have had literally all of them in Civ 4. https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Native_American_(Civ4)

Yes, but we're talking about Civ6.

Still, we have had Cree, Hodinoshoni, Sioux, Shoshones, Aztecs, Maya, Inca and Mapuche.

Aztec and Inca don't really fit your objection, though, as they had large cities and empires; the Haudenausonee and Maya also had cities and if not empires then at least confederacies that controlled large swaths of land.

Many of the ones we've already seen covered were, however.

Only the Sioux (not in Civ6) and the semi-nomadic Mapuche and Cree, though, and I feel like they got around the non-urbanized nature of the Cree reasonably well. Any additional Native Americans we see will almost certainly be urbanized, unless we get the Navajo--but the Navajo were at least sedentary if not urbanized.

Siberia hasn't had a single civ yet.

In my opinion it doesn't need one. Civilization never really developed in Siberia because the carrying capacity of the land is too low. By contrast, sophisticated, stratified, specialized, urbanized societies did develop in Native North America. It's not really a fair comparison. I wouldn't necessarily object to a well-designed Siberian civ, but I'd find it a bit gimmicky.

 

[Jeppetto]

If you want to have the Vietnam War reference, there is a Scout promotion called "Camouflage". Much better and useful than meme achievements IMO.

I know, but all jokes aside, I would like them introducing guerilla warfare mechanic, where If the unit is fortified on Forest/Jungle tile within YOUR territory for one turn it becomes invisible unless enemy unit tries to get onto the plot or it moves and it gets like +5 Combat Strength or +10 Defense Strength for the turn it revealed itself.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

that would almost fit a early modern Thailand, where under Thai rulers they placed a regional gun called a jingal on the elephant’s backs, but this wasn’t exclusive to that period and was used during the medieval period too, according to my very short and not in-depth research

Hmm... following up on this. I know there's elephant-based guns, from swivel guns to large muskets (the jingal) in Southeast Asian warfare and hunting for a long time. I see the reference to "jingal" on elephant-back a lot of places, but that wouldn't be the Thai word (Thai can't do terminal "L" sounds; when they're in Romanized Thai (e.g. Mahidol) it's a Sanskrit term that's pronounced as an "N"). So, while Westerners probably would call such a gun a jingal, the local word would refer more to the firing mechanism, e.g. puen khap si-la, the stone-fired gun (i.e. flintlock). It fit a niche as a royal weapon, replacing the long elephant-backed pike.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Speaking of well-know things militarily Vietnamese, other than the boats and Viet Cong, they have had a good reputation with the Chinese for their muskets and jingals. Not sure how I feel about elephants. I'd have to ask 8housesofelixir to make sure, but the picture of old Vietnamese armies I currently have is one where extrapolating the elephants is basically an influence of Romance of the Three Kingdoms' stories. At least prior to the conquest of Champa (Mongols make a special note of fighting elephants when conquering Dali, but no such mention in the wars in Vietnam), since they certainly did have some elephant corps at a time, but again reduced them to baggage carriers/arena performers by the Nguyen Dynasty.

My primary source here is Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư, written in 1469, later expanded in 1665 and 1797.

Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư mentioned a lot about Vietnam gifting tamed elephants to Chinese Empires, beginning from Song. It didn't mention many war elephants in the records about Lý dynasty or earlier, besides war elephants from Champa. However, since the Trần dynasty, elephants began to constantly show up in records about Vietnam military campaigns. My guess is that Lý dynasty gradually adopted elephantry though its war against Champa, who would use elephants regularly in the war.

Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư, when taking about Ming invasion of Vietnam in 1406:

Spoiler :

天長軍將阮宗杜等穴城以出象 (Vietnam general breached part of the city wall in order to let war elephants out and attacking Ming army)。明人以火箭射之 (Ming soldiers attacked elephants with fire arrows)，象退縮，明人隨象以入，城遂陷 (elephants were afraid and fled back to the city through the destroyed city wall, Ming army followed them into city and therefore took the city)。

Later records about Ming-Vietnam war also constantly mentioned Vietnam military formations as "XXX soldiers and X elephants." In the formation, the typical number of elephants seemed range from 2 to 20.

Another battle during the Southern and Northern Dynasties in 1555:

Spoiler :

又使中官太尉雄國公丁公督諸降將黎伯驪，阮凱康，阮倩，黎克愼等及本部兵象 (war elephants)，先伏于江之南 (prepared them for an ambush at the south of the river)，上自安定山，下至軍安山。太師鄭檢親督大兵，伏于江北，上自白石山，下至金山。復選象五十隻，伏于金山之下 (they pick 50 elephants and prepared them for an ambush at the north of the river)。又使廣郡公范篤領水軍，及督諸降將阮倦等，戰船十餘隻，據上流，自有執江，至金盃江，往來爲犄角之勢。次日巳時，賊兵船過金山，至翁龔市，戰船中聞笙管歌弦之聲，如入無人之地。日向午，聽軍安山砲聲一起，沿江兩岸，各起連砲七響，太師鄭檢縱兵大擊。下流象已渡河 (elephants crossed the river to encircle the enemies)，范篤，阮倦等船兵亦順流而下。兩岸兵象，奮力爭先，賊兵遂倒戈抛甲，棄船下水，各自迸生。壽郡公自料不能脫，自投于水，潮郡公武師鑠獲之，俘虜莫兵甚衆。繫壽郡公于象背 (they tied enemy's commander to an elephant's back and brought him back)，獻之營門，及生擒賊將大小數十員。

Another battle in 1592:

Spoiler :

乃命左區營將阮有僚，鄭槔等領兵象一萬 (commanding 10000 soldiers and elephants)，攻破椰橋道，直進西門 (attacking the western gate)。右區營將黃廷愛，鄭桐等領兵象一萬五百人 (10500 soldiers and elephants)，攻破纒橋道，直進南郊門 (attacking the southern gate)。前區營將鄭杜領中軍各奇，瑞莊侯等合兵象一萬二千人 (12000 soldiers and elephants)，攻破夢撟，直進木橋門。分遺已定，各領命準備攻發。節制鄭松督大營兵象二萬五千人爲後隊 (25000 soldiers and elephants as reserve)，進至紅梅駐兵，乃下令曰...

Qing-Vietnam War in 1789:

Spoiler :

初五日天未明，惠親自督戰 (Nguyễn Huệ was the battle commander)，以雄象百餘居前 (he put about 100 war elephants in the front)，勁兵随之。大戰良久，淸騎兵所乘馬見象，皆嘶鳴反走 (Qing horses were afraid of elephants and ran away)，歩兵爲象所蹂 (Qing infantries were crushed by elephants)。乃入守栅，放烏鎗 (Nguyễn Huệ added musketeers into battle)，賊驅象冒彈 (Qing soldiers were forced to face elephants and firearms at the same time - and we do know that Vietnam had better firearms at the time)。拔壘而入，清許提督，張先鋒皆戰死，諸軍大潰 (Qing forces collasped)。

The same 1789 battle in Qing Chinese records:

Spoiler :

...皆以象載大炮 (Nguyễn Huệ's army put cannon-carrying elephants into battle)，官軍倉卒禦敵，衆寡不敵，遂潰 (Qing soldiers cannot defend themselves and the army collapsed)。

TL;DR: Elephants were a regular part of Vietnamese military history beginning from the Trần dynasty.

 

[TeddyMain]

There are some interesting unit names and abilities found by @criZp in the bonus abilities list of the Gaesatae:

Spoiler :

View attachment 570211

The units and abilities come from the MOAR Units Mod. Nothing really of note here.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The units and abilities come from the MOAR Units Mod. Nothing really of note here.

Oops, my bad. I think I'm just too excited and I don't usually touch unit mods.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

The Mong Dong as far as I'm aware were after the Trung Sister's time, first appearing in the Medieval Era, so it doesn't make sense as a LUU.

Anyway the Comandante General are considered a LUU for Simon Bolivar so that is why I think Trung Nhi would make a good LUU.

Janissaries weren’t particularly unique to Suleiman, and various leaders have had LUUs not unique to them in other civs. I don’t think it *has* to be a LUU tied to the leader.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Janissaries weren’t particularly unique to Suleiman, and various leaders have had LUUs not unique to them in other civs. I don’t think it *has* to be a LUU tied to the leader.

Fair point. However Janissaries were used in his armies as well as Redcoats for Victoria.

I don't think any sort of Vietnamese navy existed at the time of the Trung Sisters so it would be hard to make it a specific LUU for them.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

My primary source here is Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư, written in 1469, later expanded in 1665 and 1797.

Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư mentioned a lot about Vietnam gifting tamed elephants to Chinese Empires, beginning from Song. It didn't mention many war elephants in the records about Lý dynasty or earlier, besides war elephants from Champa. However, since the Trần dynasty, elephants began to constantly show up in records about Vietnam military campaigns. My guess is that Lý dynasty gradually adopted elephantry though its war against Champa, who would use elephants regularly in the war.

This is fantastic. You're probably right about elephants being a Suvarnaphumi (to refer to the Theravada region of SE Asia) import, but at a certain point the question of origins gets fruitless, especially when historical records get more and more sparse. This was Vietnam's lot - caught between SE Asia and China culturally and militaristically (a Mon-Khmer language, a Chinese writing system [before the French], an East Asian strain of Buddhism, a perennial push south into Champa and Khmer-dominated lands). We shouldn't (at all; ever) assume that they're somehow derivative of Chinese militaristically or culturally and should look west as much as we look north.

They definitely used elephants by the early first millennium AD, and picked up the association between elephants and royalty that's common to everyone between the South China Sea and the Indus. Records talk a lot about Vietnam/China interactions (often meaning wars), but there's a lot of Vietnam ("Yuan" in Khmer, in what is often now impolite) - Siam interactions as well, especially concerning what to do with Cambodia - the Cambodian king once wrote that Vietnam was his mother, and Siam his father, and that if he fought with one parent, he would flee to the other. (Naturally, this was during a dark time in Cambodian history; not the glory of the Khmer Empire).

 

[sweetbrown89]

I know, but all jokes aside, I would like them introducing guerilla warfare mechanic, where If the unit is fortified on Forest/Jungle tile within YOUR territory for one turn it becomes invisible unless enemy unit tries to get onto the plot or it moves and it gets like +5 Combat Strength or +10 Defense Strength for the turn it revealed itself.

This is what I was thinking would be the way for them to implement the Vietcong strategies without Americanizing it to just the Vietnam War...seeing as they always had jungle & marsh terrain. No movement penalties for those...maybe put them at a disadvantage on open grassland? Pairing free Camouflage for all land units in jungle or marsh covers an unused guerilla niche that would make them a good defensive Civ, seeing as the NFP dual packs seem to pair aggressive with defensive Civs.