[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Eva did some good things on her own, especially for south american suffrage
True I guess it's just her husband's fault, not hers.
 
Their UU would probably be a Gaucho, but I don't know what their UI would be.
 
Their UU would probably be a Gaucho, but I don't know what their UI would be.
Tango Salon as a late game cultural building.

I agree that they most likely will not show up for Civ 6 but possibly for Civ 7.
 
Their UU would probably be a Gaucho, but I don't know what their UI would be.

Same as Gran Colombia - a Hacienda.

Argentina won't happen until Civ 7 (where they'll definitely happen)
 
Same as Gran Colombia - a Hacienda.

Argentina won't happen until Civ 7 (where they'll definitely happen)

As @Alexander's Hetaroi said, Tango Salon/Tanguería would make more sense as a unique building for Argentina, especially because it represents a very iconic aspect in culture's Argentina.

Anyway, I think Argentina would be more appropriate if the game had a migration mechanism, which may be in Civ7.
 
A Madagascar civ would be nice to see in civ 6 I don't know too much of it though.
 
A Madagascar civ would be nice to see in civ 6 I don't know too much of it though.

Another female leader candidate there, Ranavelona. Although, she had some troubling violence against her own people, iirc.
 
Another female leader candidate there, Ranavelona. Although, she had some troubling violence against her own people, iirc.
to be fair, so did Menelik, Basil II, Theo Roosevelt, Wilfred Laurier and even Gandhi
 
One impression I got from reading Vietnam history is that the Vietnamese regimes historically had a "double-faced" way of interacting with their western and southern neighbors - on the one hand numerous Vietnamese Emperors treated their Khmer, Champa, and Lao neighbors as tributary states of the Vietnam "Empire" (like how Chinese Empires treated Korea and Ryukyu), on the other hand a lot of SEA influences and customs had poured into Vietnam court, not to say that these "tributary states" of Vietnam requires a very different "tributary system" esp. when Siam was involved. As you said, they were/are in this extremely unique position of sitting between the SE Asia and China.

A couple things (also re: "Vietcong"). Do note that I am writing to you as a Southeast Asian historian, not as a representative of Firaxis.

Firstly, be careful with your "double-faced" term there. Nationalist histories have a way of representing their neighbors. In Finnish history (full disclosure: minun isä on suomalainen), the Russians are always aggressive and corrupt and the Swedes are always foolish and pompous, whereas in Swedish history, the Finns are witches and in Russian history the Finns are crazy knife-wielding maniacs. Similarly in Thai history the Burmese are violent and the Khmer are sneaky. AND similarly in Chinese histories the Vietnamese are sneaky. But these are attempts to make stock characters in a story that nations want to tell themselves about how great they are. From the other (Finn, Khmer, Vietnamese) perspective, just because you don't want to be a part of your neighbor's empire doesn't make you sneaky (as the Finns, Khmer, and Vietnamese would tell you). And, of course, from the everyday person's perspective, it doesn't fully matter. So take with a grain of salt this perspective on Vietnamese history from Chinese sources.

About the movement south when the Vietnamese ran over Champa and Khmer people who were there and "incorporated" them into their empire, here, too, it's complicated. Vietnamese is a Khmer-related (distantly, very very distantly) language, and in the northwestern mountains of Vietnam we have the origin points for all the Tai languages. So Kinh (ethnic Vietnamese) are certainly deeply embedded in Southeast Asia, from one perspective, and lived alongside Khmer, Tai, Cham (Tampuan, etc) neighbors for millennia. Taking in your neighbors' culture is unavoidable, even if you're stomping them at the same time.

Secondly, on a larger note re: this discussion, "Vietcong" refers to Communist rebels within South Vietnam who fought against the US-backed South Vietnamese forces. Let's not conflate it with all Vietnamese resisters to the French (or the Viet Minh), or with the Northern Vietnamese Army. They were obviously very close with the NVA, but were not the NVA.

Third, yes, we drew upon some Southeast Asian ideas of statecraft to influence the policies in order to move away from a heavily European card deck. But - as I've said a lot - don't read a lot into it! There's also some Russian references in there!

Finally -- there's some cool stuff coming. I'm really excited about how NFP is developing and I hope that you will be, too.

A Madagascar civ would be nice to see in civ 6 I don't know too much of it though.
*sends an envoy to Antananarivo*
 
to be fair, so did Menelik, Basil II, Theo Roosevelt, Wilfred Laurier and even Gandhi
As did Harald Hardrada, who went on a campaign of raiding, razing and killing of the inner farmlands of Norway - the Uplands - when the farmers there refused to pay taxes and opposed his rule because of them.
 
Some Civilizations with good or possible candidates for female leaders:

Benin lead by Idia
Taino lead by Anacaona
Austria lead by Maria Theresa
Berbers lead by Dihya
Argentina lead by Eva Peron
Morocco lead by Sayyida al Hurra
Madagascar lead by Ranavelona
Ashanti lead by Yaa Asantewaa
Denmark lead by Margaret I
Kiev lead by Olga
Hawaii lead by Liliʻuokalani
Hitites lead by Puduḫepa
Palmyra lead by Zenobia
Ndongo lead by Ana Nzinga
Iroquois lead by Jigonhsasee
Vietnam lead by one of the Trung Sisters

Am I forgetting some?
 
Hawaii lead by Liliʻuokalani
I wouldn't say she's an amazing choice cause the thing she's most famous for is trying to make a constitution that would've given more power to the monarchy (However it would've also limit power from foreign powers) And was eventually overthrown, ending the monarchy in Hawai'i.
 
Some Civilizations with good or possible candidates for female leaders:

Benin lead by Idia
Taino lead by Anacaona
Austria lead by Maria Theresa
Berbers lead by Dihya
Argentina lead by Eva Peron
Morocco lead by Sayyida al Hurra
Madagascar lead by Ranavelona
Ashanti lead by Yaa Asantewaa
Denmark lead by Margaret I
Kiev lead by Olga
Hawaii lead by Liliʻuokalani
Hitites lead by Puduḫepa
Palmyra lead by Zenobia
Ndongo lead by Ana Nzinga
Iroquois lead by Jigonhsasee
Vietnam lead by one of the Trung Sisters

Am I forgetting some?
Mughals — Nur Jahan, Yemen — Arwa al-Sulyahi, Nyamazana — Swazis

then you have alt leaders, ofc, like Irene for Byzantines, Isabella for Spain, Shajar al-Durr for Arabia, Fujiwara Shoshi (the Empress of Japan who created a court of poet lady-in-waitings like Murisaki Shikibu)—Japan also has Queen Himiko, but she predates Japanese as a language and was one of the first Yamato leaders in the islands, so may not have been culturally or ethnically Japanese either.

I’d also say that Zenobia should lead Arameans or Syria, rather than Palmyra
 
I wouldn't say she's an amazing choice cause the thing she's most famous for is trying to make a constitution that would've given more power to the monarchy (However it would've also limit power from foreign powers) And was eventually overthrown, ending the monarchy in Hawai'i.

Agreed. Personally, I'd far prefer Kamehameha I to lead Hawai'i. I personally believe she was more accomplished as a songwriter than as a leader, and that she would be best represented as a great musician (and maybe also the Hawaiian themes and ambients being based off her compositions)
 
Taino lead by Anacaona
Her costume, or lack thereof, could be a problem. :p

Japan also has Queen Himiko
Isn't she of dubious historicity? Empress Jingū makes more sense for a warrior queen. Since they probably still want to avoid the royal family, though, there's also Hōjō Masako, who was called the "nun shogun."
 
Firstly, be careful with your "double-faced" term there. Nationalist histories have a way of representing their neighbors. In Finnish history (full disclosure: minun isä on suomalainen), the Russians are always aggressive and corrupt and the Swedes are always foolish and pompous, whereas in Swedish history, the Finns are witches and in Russian history the Finns are crazy knife-wielding maniacs. Similarly in Thai history the Burmese are violent and the Khmer are sneaky. AND similarly in Chinese histories the Vietnamese are sneaky. But these are attempts to make stock characters in a story that nations want to tell themselves about how great they are. From the other (Finn, Khmer, Vietnamese) perspective, just because you don't want to be a part of your neighbor's empire doesn't make you sneaky (as the Finns, Khmer, and Vietnamese would tell you). And, of course, from the everyday person's perspective, it doesn't fully matter. So take with a grain of salt this perspective on Vietnamese history from Chinese sources.

Just somethings I want to clarify:

I used "double-faced" mainly because I am not a native speaker and I cannot find a word to properly describe "how Vietnam used a combination of two methods - the Chinese method and the SAE method - to interact with their Chinese/SAE neighbors" and I thought this word can be use to describe a Janus-like figure, with one face facing China and one face facing SAE, both faces belong to same Vietnam. I now realized "double-faced" can mean "deceitful", which is definitely not what I wanted to say. Maybe "two-folded" is a better term.

Besides, by "Chinese sources" do you mean "sources from the Chinese side" or "sources written in Chinese"? That one's on me for not make myself clear - by saying "my impressions from reading Vietnam history" I actually wanted to say "impressions from reading Vietnam sources about their history". My readings and impressions are largely based on Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư (as you can tell, I quoted it extensively), Đại Việt sử lược, and Khâm định Việt sử Thông giám cương mục - these are all Vietnam side of sources, but they are written in the Classical Chinese. I know what Vietnam looks like in Chinese Histories, but the impression of "Vietnam as combination of China and SAE" is from these sources (Chinese sources usually wouldn't say anything like that).

Isn't she of dubious historicity? Empress Jingū makes more sense for a warrior queen. Since they probably still want to avoid the royal family, though, there's also Hōjō Masako, who was called the "nun shogun."

Himiko is more or less an East Asian Tomyris, so as Empress Jingū.

Japan does have several Empress in the reliable historical accounts, such as Empress Suiko (the most famous female Emperor, at least among the Japanese), Empress Jito, and Empress Kogyoku.
 
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