[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

Did a lot of research about the Tlingit, Haida, Coast Salish and Chinook for a map project I was doing for fun (theoretical de-colonized Cascadia where historic territorial boundaries for ethnolinguistic macrogroups are used to determine the federal subdivisions of the gov’t)

The more I look at those four options, the more I hope one of them gets in. The Kwakwaka’wkakw would be a good choice if not for their name, as with the the Tsimshian.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Did a lot of research about the Tlingit, Haida, Coast Salish and Chinook for a map project I was doing for fun (theoretical de-colonized Cascadia where historic territorial boundaries for ethnolinguistic macrogroups are used to determine the federal subdivisions of the gov’t)

The more I look at those four options, the more I hope one of them gets in. The Kwakwaka’wkakw would be a good choice if not for their name, as with the the Tsimshian.

But the thought of Sean Bean looking at that and crying fills me with mirth.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The Kwakwaka’wkakw would be a good choice if not for their name

But the thought of Sean Bean looking at that and crying fills me with mirth.

I mean if you can punctuate it as Kwa-kwa-ka'-wkakw is not that hard to pronounce (looks like, hopefully).

Although it seems that the k in the ka' is pronounced as /kʲ/ which will easily mess things up.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I mean if you can punctuate it as Kwa-kwa-ka'-wkakw is not that hard to pronounce (looks like, hopefully).

Although it seems that the k in the ka' is pronounced as /kʲ/ which will easily mess things up.

It looks, frankly, like someone was trying to take dictation from an excited Duck.

Which is no reflection on the culture it represents: the Roman Alphabet was not designed to accurately reproduce a great many languages, no matter how much and how far you bend it.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

It looks, frankly, like someone was trying to take dictation from an excited Duck.

Which is no reflection on the culture it represents: the Roman Alphabet was not designed to accurately reproduce a great many languages, no matter how much and how far you bend it.

i’d assume a complete alphabet like devanagari would’ve been a better tool to transcribe other languages to, but India didn’t exactly take over the world so it’s natural that that’s not the case

 

[notNamed]

Which is no reflection on the culture it represents: the Roman Alphabet was not designed to accurately reproduce a great many languages, no matter how much and how far you bend it.

i’d assume a complete alphabet like devanagari would’ve been a better tool to transcribe other languages to, but India didn’t exactly take over the world so it’s natural that that’s not the case

Any script is basically equally capable of encoding any language when you use it for that. For all intents and purposes, you could write their name in Chinese, Mayan or even Hieroglyphics (with added vowels) and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
If you read up on the development of the script here, it's the usual story of why it became the way it is... not because Latin struggles with it, but because it happened in an era of typewriters. Typewriters made for English, not another language altogether. In the modern day, you still get the same problem, though lessened, with Unicode. But even then you quote it as "Kwakwaka’wakw" and not proper "Kwakwa̱ka̱ʼwakw" (a and a̱ are different vowels) or "t̓a̱p̓idux̱da" which while correct and actually writable on a keyboard, is mangled by the font renderer in your browser of choice. In turn making the correct text stand out like an eyesore and seemingly having the PC tell you there are mistakes in the thing.
Non-standard Devanāgarī you'd have to come up with would have the very same issue. Only languages that are frequently used in some context get the "privilege of typewriters" and properly rendered fonts (and sometimes not even that, I know for a fact Wikipedia absolutely hates Vietnamese, many common fonts crash and burn the moment you start adding diacritics because English/ASCII doesn't have these), because in the end, it's something that needs to be paid for and supported long-term.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean if you can punctuate it as Kwa-kwa-ka'-wkakw is not that hard to pronounce (looks like, hopefully).

Although it seems that the k in the ka' is pronounced as /kʲ/ which will easily mess things up.

He couldn't pronounce Jayavarman VII right though.

For all the great shows/movies he's been in I forgive him.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

He couldn't pronounce Jayavarman VII right though.

For all the great shows/movies he's been in I forgive him.

To mis-quote the Pirates of Penzance, with all his faults, we love our Bean.

 

[Jkchart]

To mis-quote the Pirates of Penzance, with all his faults, we love our Bean.

He is but a poor orphan boy

Wait those are his sons

 

[Zaarin]

The Kwakwaka’wkakw would be a good choice if not for their name

I think you mean because of their name. I have a silver ring that was hand-engraved by a Kwakwaka'wakw artist; it's one of my favorite pieces of jewelry.

I mean if you can punctuate it as Kwa-kwa-ka'-wkakw is not that hard to pronounce (looks like, hopefully).

/ˈkʷakʷəkʲəʔwakʷ/, if you can read IPA.

Although it seems that the k in the ka' is pronounced as /kʲ/ which will easily mess things up.

Having no /k/ is an areal feature of the PNW: many languages of the region have any of /kʰ kʼ kʲ kʲʰ kʼʲ kʷ kʷʰ kʼʷ/ but no /k/. Other traits of the region: large consonant inventories, ejectives, large inventories of lateral obstruents, no labial consonants (like in the Iroquoian languages), and no nasals (in a small handful of Salishan languages). Tlingit has two sounds which are not known to occur in any other language: /xʼʷ χʼʷ/.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think you mean because of their name. I have a silver ring that was hand-engraved by a Kwakwaka'wakw artist; it's one of my favorite pieces of jewelry.


/ˈkʷakʷəkʲəʔwakʷ/, if you can read IPA.


Having no /k/ is an areal feature of the PNW: many languages of the region have any of /kʰ kʼ kʲ kʲʰ kʼʲ kʷ kʷʰ kʼʷ/ but no /k/. Other traits of the region: large consonant inventories, ejectives, large inventories of lateral obstruents, no labial consonants (like in the Iroquoian languages), and no nasals (in a small handful of Salishan languages). Tlingit has two sounds which are not known to occur in any other language: /xʼʷ χʼʷ/.

i unfortunately cannot read IPA

 

[Zaarin]

i unfortunately cannot read IPA

It's an invaluable tool if you're interested in languages. Knowing what a symbol means does not necessarily mean you're actually able to pronounce it, though.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It's an invaluable tool if you're interested in languages. Knowing what a symbol means does not necessarily mean you're actually able to pronounce it, though.

At least, not if you are over about 2 years old. When babies are apparently babbling to themselves, they are actually practicing every possible sound that the human voice can produce. When they start actually pronouncing recognizable word-sounds, though, they have focused on those human vocals that they are hearing. So, any human baby can learn any human language, but they 'learn' to ignore, and therefore largely lose the ability to pronounce, sounds that they don't hear as babies/children.
This is one of the few things from my one linguistics course that I have no trouble remembering!

 

[AsH2]

i unfortunately cannot read IPA

It's an invaluable tool if you're interested in languages. Knowing what a symbol means does not necessarily mean you're actually able to pronounce it, though.

A few IPAs make me a fluent speaker of any language. Too many and I can't even pronounce "bottle".

 

[Zaarin]

At least, not if you are over about 2 years old. When babies are apparently babbling to themselves, they are actually practicing every possible sound that the human voice can produce. When they start actually pronouncing recognizable word-sounds, though, they have focused on those human vocals that they are hearing. So, any human baby can learn any human language, but they 'learn' to ignore, and therefore largely lose the ability to pronounce, sounds that they don't hear as babies/children.
This is one of the few things from my one linguistics course that I have no trouble remembering!

What's amazing is how unhelpful analogy is. I have strongly pharyngealized R and L in my dialect of English; I cannot pronounce the pharyngealized emphatics of Aramaic or Arabic.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Back to topic please.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Okay, here's my remaining speculation thus far:

* Vietnam is pack 5.
* Portugal or Assyria is pack 6 for a strong finish. If the game is wrapping up, it is Portugal (spacing out the European packs). If there is more content planned, it is Assyria.
* Pack 4 by rights should be a new civ, but we don't have any potential civs with selling power except something Italian, which is unlikely with three Italian city-states. While it is possible that a Maghreb civ might have selling power as something familiar and covering high HSI MENA countries, or the Cherokee/Navajo as pulling American interest, neither of those are guarantees. So while a NA or Maghreb civ (or even Oman) are possible, I am not very hopeful.
* We also have reason to speculate that this heroes mode is associated with DLC 4, making it quite likely that DLC 4 is in fact something from the ME and probably Assyria, although the game modes haven't always perfectly themed with their civs. But nothing NA, Maghrebi, or Asian would resonate at all with a heroes mode so Assyria seems most likely.
* It follows that if Assyria is pack 4, pack 6 is most likely Portugal. In which case, the game is probably wrapping up, barring perhaps an expack full of less wanted civs.

In conclusion, most likely we are looking at:

* Assyria, Vietnam, Portugal

And there is a long shot we may be surprised by:

* New civ, Vietnam, Assyria/Portugal

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

So reasons why no Burma nor Siam to appear? Aren't the two countries deserve the place in NFP? (Possibly the LAST expansion pack) and can only exists in fan mod (Like Sukrit's)
If The two is to appear in civ6 how do you like to see them?
1. City States (Bangkok/Thonburi and Bagan/Pegu/Taung U/ Inwa) so Dai Viet deserves its place here
2. Full civ

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Okay, here's my remaining speculation thus far:

* Vietnam is pack 5.
* Portugal or Assyria is pack 6 for a strong finish. If the game is wrapping up, it is Portugal (spacing out the European packs). If there is more content planned, it is Assyria.
* Pack 4 by rights should be a new civ, but we don't have any potential civs with selling power except something Italian, which is unlikely with three Italian city-states. While it is possible that a Maghreb civ might have selling power as something familiar and covering high HSI MENA countries, or the Cherokee/Navajo as pulling American interest, neither of those are guarantees. So while a NA or Maghreb civ (or even Oman) are possible, I am not very hopeful.
* We also have reason to speculate that this heroes mode is associated with DLC 4, making it quite likely that DLC 4 is in fact something from the ME and probably Assyria, although the game modes haven't always perfectly themed with their civs. But nothing NA, Maghrebi, or Asian would resonate at all with a heroes mode so Assyria seems most likely.
* It follows that if Assyria is pack 4, pack 6 is most likely Portugal. In which case, the game is probably wrapping up, barring perhaps an expack full of less wanted civs.

In conclusion, most likely we are looking at:

* Assyria, Vietnam, Portugal

And there is a long shot we may be surprised by:

* New civ, Vietnam, Assyria/Portugal

I agree with this though it's also possible that the heroic mode isn't until pack 6.

I think if Pack 4 is a new civ like from North Africa then I would bet we would get more content after. I think the MoorTires name is too coincidental to not point to either North Africa or Portugal, meaning an Assyria/Babylonian pack wouldn't be until pack 6 with the heroes and epics because they have been themed for the most part.
Apocalypse went with Maya
Secret Society=Underground Church for Ethiopia
Dramatic Ages=Rise and Fall of Western Rome (conquering Gaul then fell as Byzantium rose).

So reasons why no Burma nor Siam to appear? Aren't the two countries deserve the place in NFP? (Possibly the LAST expansion pack) and can only exists in fan mod (Like Sukrit's)
If The two is to appear in civ6 how do you like to see them?
1. City States (Bangkok/Thonburi and Bagan/Pegu/Taung U/ Inwa) so Dai Viet deserves its place here
2. Full civ

I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them becomes a city-state.
It's not that they aren't deserving it's just from a design perspective Vietnam is very marketable, not to mention it has been one of the most requested new civs by fans, not only on this forum. Plus Vietnam is able to differentiate itself from the rest of SE Asia by having closer ties to China and not be as similar as the Khmer.

 

[notNamed]

Plus Vietnam is able to differentiate itself from the rest of SE Asia by having closer ties to China and not be as similar as the Khmer.

This. Southeast Asia is a geographic territory, but Vietnam is an expansionist Chinese state (just like its contemporaries, Wu, Min, Wuyue, Jingnan, Former Shu, Later Liang and Dai Viet...modern Southern Han) the dynasty of which was the only one successful at not being rolled over by the emerging Song state which would end up establishing Song dynasty. And so you get a southern Chinese state taking on some hints of their neighbors, but still being very Sinitic. Ho Chi Minh is my favorite example. He got his education because he was the son of a mandarin. While he went on to become a revolutionary, his brother became a feng shui geomancer. The stripes on the flag of South Vietnam are a Daoist trigram just like the ones found on the flag of modern South Korea.
All of their literature, records and everyday signs are in Classical Chinese, rest of SE Asia uses Sanskrit or some derivatives thereof.
They built pagodas, rest of SE Asia built stupas.
They were staunchly Confucian, the rest of SE Asia operated on Indic philosophical traditions.
Religiously they were Zen Buddhists, rest of SE Asia was either Hinduist, Theravada Buddhist, or even Muslim.
They operated with clear borders guarded with walls and soldiers, rest of SE Asia used the Mandala system.
They used the Han-Barbarian distinction in governance and thus actively resettled and assimilated the barbarians under their rule (most famously Champas), rest of SE Asia did not require homogenosity of its empires (it's also the reason Myanmar/Burma has active ethnic cleansing running to this day, Thailand has to continually battle separatist movements on most of its modern territory).
To get a government position you had to pass the Imperial Examination, in SE Asia it was always? (help me here, folks) the aristocracy selecting people for positions.
Of course, the syncretisms are there, but they are on top of two fairly different and distinct cultural bases.
For instance, Sinitic weapons and the Lunisolar Zodiac calendar (+ Chinese New Year celebrations) are used even in Thailand and Cambodia.
On the other hand, Vietnam did incorporate stuff from both their neighbors and conquered subjects, like the strong elephant-status symbolism.