[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

The newest DLC, presumed to be for the January DLC, which is thought to be Kublai Khan and Vietnam due to datamining, is codenamed MouthBag.

Start your speculation!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The newest DLC, presumed to be for the January DLC, which is thought to be Kublai Khan and Vietnam due to datamining, is codenamed MouthBag.

Start your speculation!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagworm_moth
They use silk to cover themselves which relates to the Silk Road. Easy!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagworm_moth
They use silk to cover themselves which relates to the Silk Road. Easy!

Mouth, not moth.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Mouth, not moth.

The silk comes from their mouth.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The silk comes from their mouth.

Silkworm and Bagworm are very, very different.
Source: I had raised silkworms myself (a common activity in Chinese primary schools 20 years ago)

A quick google search shows that Mouthbag is something related to modeling and 3D animation.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Silkworm and Bagworm are very, very different.
Source: I had raised silkworms myself (a common activity in Chinese primary schools 20 years ago)

A quick google search shows that Mouthbag is something related to modeling and 3D animation.

I just saw that bagworms do use some silk. It's probably a stretch but I was just trying to relate it to East Asia somehow.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I just saw that bagworms do use some silk. It's probably a stretch but I was just trying to relate it to East Asia somehow.

If we really want to make an East Asian/Kublai/Vietnam connection for this "MouthBag":

The Chinese word for "pocket" is written as 口袋 (kodai). This word can be broken into separate characters 口 and 袋.
In Chinese, 口 means mouth, 袋 means bag.

Then you have "MouthBag" as a strange direct translation of "pocket" in Chinese - on the other hand, what is this "pocket" indicating is beyond my knowledge.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Silkworm and Bagworm are very, very different.
Source: I had raised silkworms myself (a common activity in Chinese primary schools 20 years ago)

A quick google search shows that Mouthbag is something related to modeling and 3D animation.

Apparently, it's a shortcut or something that 3D animators use to simulate the interior of a mouth.

Is it possible there's a version of Kublai's name a Kodai or something?

 

[Zaarin]

Unfortunately that also might be a problem with Dahomey, as many of the leaders were actively involved in the Atlantic slave trade.

Not to digress too far into the weeds, but while everyone agrees that slavery was very bad for the people who were enslaved, its net effect on Africa is a highly contentious subject among scholars. Also worth noting that you can't find a coastal West African civ that didn't participate in the slave trade. NB our own Mvemba a Nzinga participated in the trade and only complained when the Portuguese started enslaving Kongolese nobles (including, apparently, members of his own household) instead of the peasants and enemies they were supposed to be taking.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Is it possible there's a version of Kublai's name a Kodai or something?

Nope, his Chinese name in all records begins with a H sound - Chinese usually transliterate the Urdu/Cyrillic KH into H - so we have his name as 忽必烈 (Hubilie), 忽必来 (Hubilai), or 呼必赉 (Hubilai).

 

[Jeppetto]

Apparently, it's a shortcut or something that 3D animators use to simulate the interior of a mouth.

Is it possible there's a version of Kublai's name a Kodai or something?

Maybe it's just that one of the two leaders is very talkative or opens mouth widely in animations

 

[Chekko]

With Haiti I can imagine there being some unique beliefs you unlock. I want to have more beliefs.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

With Haiti I can imagine there being some unique beliefs you unlock. I want to have more beliefs.

I could see them having access to an extra category of syncretic beliefs that replaces the founder beliefs for them, and sort of warping them into something thematically voodoo.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not to digress too far into the weeds, but while everyone agrees that slavery was very bad for the people who were enslaved, its net effect on Africa is a highly contentious subject among scholars. Also worth noting that you can't find a coastal West African civ that didn't participate in the slave trade. NB our own Mvemba a Nzinga participated in the trade and only complained when the Portuguese started enslaving Kongolese nobles (including, apparently, members of his own household) instead of the peasants and enemies they were supposed to be taking.

I agree. However certain leaders, like Ghezo or Agaja, would probably have to have a leader ability revolve around it.

They seem to be the ones who we have the most info on.

 

[Sirimiri]

I could see them having access to an extra category of syncretic beliefs that replaces the founder beliefs for them, and sort of warping them into something thematically voodoo.

Considering the ways syncretic religion in Cuba, Haiti and Brazil emerged I personally would avoid making voodoo beliefs part of the religion system itself. The practices are tied quite closely to the development of ethnic identity rather than occupying the space of religion necessarily, which brought on the incorporation of Catholic iconography. I would prefer to see some things considered religion e.g. Vodun, Confucianism and Shinto to be treated in game more like Kongo's civ ability nkisi, which is based on the practice of making ritual objects which became Palo in Cuba and occupies a similar space to Santería and Cuban Vodú (they also make figures in order to harm others hence the comparison). Perhaps rather than go the Kongo route they could have a resistance to conversion, a more limited but stronger set of pantheon beliefs and/or more expensive religious units but higher religious pressure from cities. As each population can only believe in one thing it's hard to present anything like the Three Teachings in China or a Catholic Voodoo syncretic religion. This would be an interesting ability in itself, to be able to coexist alongside another religion, although I have no idea how it would work in a game setting.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Considering the ways syncretic religion in Cuba, Haiti and Brazil emerged I personally would avoid making voodoo beliefs part of the religion system itself. The practices are tied quite closely to the development of ethnic identity rather than occupying the space of religion necessarily, which brought on the incorporation of Catholic iconography. I would prefer to see some things considered religion e.g. Vodun, Confucianism and Shinto to be treated in game more like Kongo's civ ability nkisi, which is based on the practice of making ritual objects which became Palo in Cuba and occupies a similar space to Santería and Cuban Vodú (they also make figures in order to harm others hence the comparison). Perhaps rather than go the Kongo route they could have a resistance to conversion, a more limited but stronger set of pantheon beliefs and/or more expensive religious units but higher religious pressure from cities. As each population can only believe in one thing it's hard to present anything like the Three Teachings in China or a Catholic Voodoo syncretic religion. This would be an interesting ability in itself, to be able to coexist alongside another religion, although I have no idea how it would work in a game setting.

This would be an interesting direction - currently the game has no idea about the difference between folk religion, organized religion, state religion, etc.

 

[Zaarin]

Considering the ways syncretic religion in Cuba, Haiti and Brazil emerged I personally would avoid making voodoo beliefs part of the religion system itself. The practices are tied quite closely to the development of ethnic identity rather than occupying the space of religion necessarily, which brought on the incorporation of Catholic iconography.

I would argue that until the past few centuries there wasn't a meaningful difference between ethnic identity and religion. That being said, I agree that Civ6 does a particularly horrible job at presenting that.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This would be an interesting direction - currently the game has no idea about the difference between folk religion, organized religion, state religion, etc.

Looking up Vietnamese history and culture I noticed that the majority of people follow Vietnamese folk religion, as opposed to other more organized religions. I don't know if they would pursue a religious/faith focus for them but it would be interesting for them as well.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Looking up Vietnamese history and culture I noticed that the majority of people follow Vietnamese folk religion, as opposed to other more organized religions. I don't know if they would pursue a religious/faith focus for them but it would be interesting for them as well.

The closet thing to IRL folk religion in the game is probably Pantheon, although I cannot really think what additional mechanism Pantheon can have.

(Also, a strong emphasis of folk religion is a Chinese thing as well, but most of the people will only remember Confucianism, which is not really a religion)

 

[Sirimiri]

I would argue that until the past few centuries there wasn't a meaningful difference between ethnic identity and religion. That being said, I agree that Civ6 does a particularly horrible job at presenting that.

To get more academic I would argue the category of religion only became relevant within that space of time- the term in East Asia emerges through the Japanese translation of Dutch texts. Jesuits often struggled to work out what was acceptable for their new converts to carry on practicing and what was heretical. How you could represent a meaningful distinction between Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism in a meaningful way in game is beyond me, let alone movements into neo-confucianism, so-called religious Daoism and all the schools of Buddhism. Paradox also seems to handle this badly. I think some people like to believe an anachronistic shinto defines Japaneseness, especially in the cuter way it is portrayed in the modern day.