[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[TeddyMain]

So your point is they should have early acces to Scientific Alliance?

They get spies at the start of the game, but they only have the "Steal Tech Boost" mission available until they reach the Diplomatic Service civic

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Let's get back to the topic, shall we all? Epaminondas as an alternate leader for Greece, and yes, I am somewhat a Hellenophile.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I was under the impression that South Indians, while taking pride in their Dravidian identity, are as proud to be Indian as North Indians are

It’s complicated. South Indians are proud to be Indian, but they also find India highly problematic. South India, specifically Kerala and Tamil Nadu, are the last bastion of Indian progressivism and, along with West Bengal, the last states where the BJP doesn’t have control. South India is generally opposed to the nationalism of things like hindu nationalism bcs of how it’s culture gets swept under the rug.

That said, it’s not like South India wants to break off from the rest of the country. they are ultimately happy being a part of india, but if you asked 10 million, 10 thousand or 10 South Indians whether they’d rather be states or autonomous regions, i’m fairly sure they’d choose the latter.

Deng Xiaoping should never appear in a game like this, despite being the only modern Chinese leader that random folks online consider a good guy (other than Sun Yatsen, that is).

Well, yeah... Especially when China has thousands of years of history behind it with leaders who are far more interesting than Deng. I still think Wudi would be a great choice for the civ, but alas, we’ve just got Qin again. Not complaining provided Kublai Khan is a China alt though.

That said I think the perceptions of Deng are very interesting. It’s quite telling that the internet at large is fond of a leader who was responsible for a great number of deaths but is best known for making China more capitalist.

I am going to assert that you can extend this statement:

I strongly suspect however that one's opinion on Castro is likely to be determined by where on the political spectrum one sits.

to any cold war leader, tbh.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To be fair, the Greeks stole all their eurekas from Babylon and the Egyptians anyway.

To be fair the Greeks came up with the term for Eureka.

Having said that, I'm a bit surprised at Thenewwwguy's assertion that modern India has little to do with the Dravidians and vice-versa. While I'm not Indian or of Indian descent myself (one of my racist countrymen I was having a political argument with tried to insult me by saying I looked Indian once, does that count?), I was under the impression that South Indians, while taking pride in their Dravidian identity, are as proud to be Indian as North Indians are. I mean, South India is turning into the economic engine of India; Kerala, a South Indian state, has the highest HDI in India; Bengaluru, a South Indian city, is a tech hub, and South Indian states are starting to surpass North Indian states in per capita GDP.

That was my assumption as well. I never particularly said that I was against de-blobbing India but I don't necessarily see a need for it in Civ 6 for a separate South Indian civ until we get rid of a civ called India altogether and also have a separate Mauryan and Mughal civ.

Maybe we should de-blob Brittania further, and include the Welsh and Irish in the game.

They are already in as city-states.
I expect the Irish to be a full civ in the future.

Let's get back to the topic, shall we all? Epaminondas as an alternate leader for Greece, and yes, I am somewhat a Hellenophile.

I am definitely a Hellenophile too but at this point I'm content with the number of Greek leaders we have.

 

[Ticio]

Yup. Case in point: Pinochet or Mohammed Shah Pahlavi. Ofc there’s also Syngman Rhee and others.

There are a great deal of leaders who are too brutal to be in civ.

Maybe given enough time
(In 50 years we could have Castro as we have Genghis Khan)!

 

[Starina]

Moderator Action: Removed part of post that ignored the moderator warning above. leif

Let's get back to the topic, shall we all? Epaminondas as an alternate leader for Greece, and yes, I am somewhat a Hellenophile.

A good idea! But I think for Civ 7. It's a great solution to add a second lilder for Greece and Macedonia in the DLC to vanilla. And in the seventh game I would like Firaxis to develop this idea and make the differences in “Greece” more different than just the leader's abilities: perhaps the acropolis can give one bonus to all leaders and different for each one at once. Well, and without Alexander, civilization is not civilization! The history of Ancient Greece is multifaceted: one leader can be responsible for war, another for politics, and the third (oh horror!) for culture. In addition, they can be combined with each other.
And I think it would be nice that India went the same way) This tip for Firaxis

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

A good idea! But I think for Civ 7. It's a great solution to add a second lilder for Greece and Macedonia in the DLC to vanilla. And in the seventh game I would like Firaxis to develop this idea and make the differences in “Greece” more different than just the leader's abilities: perhaps the acropolis can give one bonus to all leaders and different for each one at once. Well, and without Alexander, civilization is not civilization! The history of Ancient Greece is multifaceted: one leader can be responsible for war, another for politics, and the third (oh horror!) for culture. In addition, they can be combined with each other.
And I think it would be nice that India went the same way) This tip for Firaxis

I'd personally like the unique abilities for Greece in Civ 7 to be a combination of both science and culture. Greek philosophy was intertwined with scientific discoveries anyway.
From there we could have a separate diplomatic/political leader (Pericles) and then a more aggressive warlike leader (Alexander if they don't bring back Macedon or Leonidas/Gorgo again?).

 

[Zaarin]

In fact, it would be more accurate to say that the Greeks built on any Eurekas they got from Babylon and the Egyptians.

Fair. I admit I specifically had astronomy on my mind, where the Greeks made no additions worth mentioning. The works of Hipparchus (what we know of them) and of Ptolemy are best described as transmitting Babylonian knowledge to a Greek audience (often misattributed to the Egyptians, who may or may not have been intermediaries). Even the Antikythera Mechanism is based on Babylonian computations. Ironically, the Greeks were much more innovative about astrology. The Babylonians believed that signs in the heavens were omens and that they were chiefly intended for states and kings; the Greeks decided the stars caused fate and were for everyone.

ETA: Realized too late that this sounds needlessly harsh. I'm certainly not downplaying the importance of the Almagest for later science nor Ptolemy's excellent synthesis of data nor his own additional observations.

Hipparchus discovered and described a Supernova

That's called being lucky. If I had a time machine, my first stop would be AD 1054.

The horizontal-axis waterwheel was invented in Alexandria around 240 BCE

I came across a paper while doing research for my paper this quarter arguing that the -- Oh, wait, I read water wheel as water screw. Anyway, I saw a paper arguing the water screw was a Persian invention. I didn't read the paper as it wasn't relevant to my topic so I don't know how convincing the author's argument was, but someone at least is contesting Archimedes' iconic invention.

I'd personally like the unique abilities for Greece in Civ 7 to be a combination of both science and culture. Greek philosophy was intertwined with scientific discoveries anyway.

I'd rather see Greece as a culture/warfare civ. War was a huge part of Greek culture, including for Athens. On the contrary, Athens was quite the warmonger and hated by pretty much everyone for it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I came across a paper while doing research for my paper this quarter arguing that the -- Oh, wait, I read water wheel as water screw. Anyway, I saw a paper arguing the water screw was a Persian invention. I didn't read the paper as it wasn't relevant to my topic so I don't know how convincing the author's argument was, but someone at least is contesting Archimedes' iconic invention.

Well either way that is one thing that wasn't originally Babylonian.
That being said Babylon can't build regular watermills in the game so there you go.

I'd rather see Greece as a culture/warfare civ. War was a huge part of Greek culture, including for Athens. On the contrary, Athens was quite the warmonger and hated by pretty much everyone for it.

I'd rather not pigeonhole it into just culture and warfare like it's always been.
Just give Pericles a trireme UU and call it even.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Deleted 5 posts and altered others that ignored the moderator warning above. If you must get into historical discussions, please take them to the History forum. This is not the place for them. Further off topic forays will result in thread bans for members ignoring the warnings.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I came across a paper while doing research for my paper this quarter arguing that the -- Oh, wait, I read water wheel as water screw. Anyway, I saw a paper arguing the water screw was a Persian invention. I didn't read the paper as it wasn't relevant to my topic so I don't know how convincing the author's argument was, but someone at least is contesting Archimedes' iconic invention.

Including Archimedes, who never claimed to have invented it. He described it in use in Egypt in around 234 BCE, and Diodorus mistakenly assumed that this meant he invented it. In fact, Strabo describes the Hanging Gardens as being irrigated by a water screw (although in fact, Strabo was going by accounts from Babylonians - he never saw the Gardens himself).
I suspect the paper you saw was from the research of Stephanie Dalley, who interpreted a cuneiform inscription from the time of Sennacherib of Assyria as indicating that water screws were being cast in bronze about 350 years before Archimedes.
In summary, Archimedes by his own testimony did not invent the Water Screw, it was already in use in Egypt and may have been in use (Dalley's translations and interpretations are not universally accepted) several hundred years earlier in Assyria/Babylon. Who invented it first, Babylonians, Assyrians, or someone else, is still an open question - at least until a cuneiform tablet comes out of the ground with a patent application for a Water Screw . . .

I'd rather see Greece as a culture/warfare civ. War was a huge part of Greek culture, including for Athens. On the contrary, Athens was quite the warmonger and hated by pretty much everyone for it.

"War, the Father of us all" is the translated Greek phrase, part of which Victor Hansen used as the title for a book.
The only problem is, the Greeks fought mostly against each other, or as mercenaries for others, so a Military emphasis for Greece, I think, would have to be something different from the usual Gets More Generals, Has an OP UU, Never gets tired of fighting mechanic.

One possibility might be to allow the Greeks to 'rent' their units out, rather like a City State's armies getting levied but at the Greek players/AIs discretion as to how many and what type of units and who gets them for X turns. Since the renting AI/Player would have to pay an initial cost plus maintenance on the units for the (30 turns like the Heroes or Trade Routes?) duration of the Mercenary Contract, that would allow the Greek Civ to form more units than it can afford - pretty much what the Greek City States did IRL.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

One possibility might be to allow the Greeks to 'rent' their units out, rather like a City State's armies getting levied but at the Greek players/AIs discretion as to how many and what type of units and who gets them for X turns. Since the renting AI/Player would have to pay an initial cost plus maintenance on the units for the (30 turns like the Heroes or Trade Routes?) duration of the Mercenary Contract, that would allow the Greek Civ to form more units than it can afford - pretty much what the Greek City States did IRL.

I was thinking the renting units out to other players would work well in a hypothetical Numidia or Italian civ, at least an Italian UU, as well.

Speaking of renting out unique units I hope more militaristic city states in the future get them as it feels kind of lackluster that only Lahore has it in this game, whereas we have many different unique improvements.
Though to be fair they just introduced Lahore and unique improvements were in the base game but hopefully that's a precedent they will continue.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Maybe the best idea is making Greek a generalist civ next time, focusing on food (cf. colonial wheat production and transportation), production (cf. shipbuilding industry), housing (cf. city planning), and gold (cf. Athenian sliver mines) in order to support military, science, culture, diplomacy, religion, colonization, etc. - since they were good at a lot of things. (cf. the current Rome and Phoenicia design.) As well as more alternative leaders.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I was thinking the renting units out to other players would work well in a hypothetical Numidia or Italian civ, at least an Italian UU, as well.

I feel as if the Swiss can do that better than the Italians, although you have your own opinion and I have mine. I also have an idea for Numidia that would work something like this.
Link's here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-civilization-6-to-be-expanded-more-2.664504/

I would like Numidia in the game, but I feel North Africa would be better represented by Morocco.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I still feel like they missed an opportunity to give Pericles a naval LUU and Gorgo a Spartan LUU.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I still feel like they missed an opportunity to give Pericles a naval LUU and Gorgo a Spartan LUU.

To represent Athens and Sparta? Hell yeah! If a Theban leader were in the game, they should have the Sacred Band as a Unique Unit.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

A good idea! But I think for Civ 7. It's a great solution to add a second lilder for Greece and Macedonia in the DLC to vanilla. And in the seventh game I would like Firaxis to develop this idea and make the differences in “Greece” more different than just the leader's abilities: perhaps the acropolis can give one bonus to all leaders and different for each one at once. Well, and without Alexander, civilization is not civilization! The history of Ancient Greece is multifaceted: one leader can be responsible for war, another for politics, and the third (oh horror!) for culture. In addition, they can be combined with each other.
And I think it would be nice that India went the same way) This tip for Firaxis

This would be interesting. I think the big con of the civ format is that there’s very little to differentiate Sparta and Macedon as ‘warmonger greeks’. Obviously, we viscerally know they had disparate cultures, but that’s not well represented in Civ’s format (which, as I’m increasingly finding, is ill suited to representing historical cultures and nations as a whole)

I still feel like they missed an opportunity to give Pericles a naval LUU and Gorgo a Spartan LUU.

they definitely did. As @Duke William of Normandy also noted, a lot of other greek city states have good LUU options

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I feel as if the Swiss can do that better than the Italians, although you have your own opinion and I have mine. I also have an idea for Numidia that would work something like this.
Link's here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-civilization-6-to-be-expanded-more-2.664504/

I would like Numidia in the game, but I feel North Africa would be better represented by Morocco.

The Swiss could work but since Italy is my most wanted civ they would work just as well with these who were mercenary companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottiero

I'd also something more on the Berber side for North Africa this time instead of Morocco again.

I still feel like they missed an opportunity to give Pericles a naval LUU and Gorgo a Spartan LUU.

I don't mind Pericles not having a naval LUU. I don't know if it totally fits with his leader ability being the diplomatic leader. Sort of how Bull Moose Teddy loses his Rough Rider LUU because he becomes the conservationist.
Though Gorgo having Leonidas as a Great General LUU would be fun.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think and have thought for several years that Civ needed a good Mercenary Mechanic, given the importance of mercenaries and mercenary units in several periods of history: Greek/Mediterranean in late 4th and 3rd centuries BCE, late Medieval and Renaissance Eras all over Europe - and for the minor German states, right up to the Napoleonic Wars, and even in the Atomic and Information Eras with our 'Civilian Security Companies' now.

One possibility to accommodate many of the famous mercenary units without adding Civs just to provide them would be, as posted above, to add some new or revised Military City States that can provide Mercenary Units as Lahore does now.
Some examples:
Cirte - provides Numidian Horseman, a Classical Light Cavalry unit with a Range 1 attack (thrown javelins) that can move after attacking and Retreat Before Combat (1 tile only, it may still get caught and forced to fight)
Geneva (or Berne) - provides Swiss Pikemen, a Medieval Pikeman unit that ignores Hill terrain restrictions and has a Bonus combat factor when attacking.
Darmstadt - provides the Hessian Grenadier, an Industrial Era 'Redcoat' style melee unit that adds Production when used to garrison a city (the troops of the mid-18th century were only 'on duty' for about half the day, and were encouraged to get jobs so the government didn't have to pay them as much. That meant that having a regiment or two billeted in the city added a workforce of several thousand young, healthy men to the city, many of whom had skills like carpentry or craftworking)
Mallorca - provides the Baleric Slinger, an Ancient ranged unit with the range and effect of Archers, but a Bonus against Ranged Units (the Baleric slingers shot lead pellets that outranged normal 'self' bows and flew so fast they could not be seen and dodged - unarmored archers were decimated by them as late as the Middle Ages, when similar slingers shot a group of mercenary English Longbowmen to pieces!)

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Baleric Slinger, an Ancient ranged unit with the range and effect of Archers, but a Bonus against Ranged Units (the Baleric slingers shot lead pellets that outranged normal 'self' bows and flew so fast they could not be seen and dodged - unarmored archers were decimated by them as late as the Middle Ages, when similar slingers shot a group of mercenary English Longbowmen to pieces!)

Ah, yes, the terror of Rome: Total War A.I. And yeah, Numidia should at least get a City-State if they don't get a Civilization.