[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Jeppetto]

I wanted (maybe I've mentoined it before) for players to be able to sabotage each other more freely without war, representing their relationship deterioration (at Disliked you cannot Trade but may plunder each others' Traders, at Denounced you cannot Deal but may kill each others' units outside individual territories, at Warring you may enter each others' borders etc) and Mercenary Units to possibly take the role of hired saboteurs, where you may perform transgressions without much diplomatic transparency. As such you'd be able to purchase Mercenaries from any City-State, and they'd evolve like other Units, covering Pirates, Privateers, Outlaws, etc.

Alternatively, I'd like to see CS benefits more expanded. More tiers, more ways to earn influence and this would provide opportunity for more unique CS-type benefits. Say that you may increase your Influence with CS If you have active Trade Route there, Delegate (Spy-like assign unit to reap benefits from CS) assigned there, Spy performing specific Mission there, If you import certain Resource to them (which's effects you lose so long as it's being imported) etc. And then there would be more tiers of benefits like +1 Yield to each City with Appropriate Tier I Building, +2 Yield to each Appropriate Improvement, +5 Yield to DQ Building, +10% Yield to Capital. And finally, something unique to the type. Such as "Can hire Mercenary Unit" for Military CS, +1 Trade Route Capacity for Mercantile CS etc. One way to represent Military States generally as source of Mercenaries.

I think devs wanted Levying to sort of cover that but I can't get over the fact it seems mildly amusing, as If you were paying to fix meh AI yourself.

 

[Zaarin]

Maybe the best idea is making Greek a generalist civ next time, focusing on food (cf. colonial wheat production and transportation)

I'm all for making Greece a generalist civ, but agricultural bonuses don't quite feel right. Greek agriculture was hardly exceptional, certainly nothing like Egypt or the Fertile Crescent. Since abilities tend to center around what a civilization was exceptional or distinctive at, cultural Greece just all around makes the most sense. Their philosophy and political theory have underpinned Western (and to some extent Middle Eastern) thought for over two thousand years, and, even though there is a rich literary tradition in the East far older than Homer, Westerners nevertheless tend to look to Homer and Hesiod as the beginning of their literary traditions.

 

[Kimiimaro]

If Firaxis decides to fuse Macedon and Greece again, I wouldn't mind seeing Philip II. Alexander was a great individual on his own, that's right, but let's not forget that it was Philip II who innovated Greek warfare, united Greece under the Macedonian leadership and paved way of conquest for Alexander by leaving him the powerful Macedonian army already formed.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If Firaxis decides to fuse Macedon and Greece again, I wouldn't mind seeing Philip II. Alexander was a great individual on his own, that's right, but let's not forget that it was Philip II who innovated Greek warfare, united Greece under the Macedonian leadership and paved way of conquest for Alexander by leaving him the powerful Macedonian army already formed.

Or Phillip II leads Macedon and Alexander leads Greece?

Making room for Isabelle leading Spain again.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

The chance of Trung Trac appearing as a leader is pretty much 0% at this point. Why would they add her in November just to change her in January? The idea for the whole pass must be planned out before any of this got announced, so it is not like adding a city-state in this expansion just to change its name the next expansion to make room for a new civ.

And I also think if Firaxis is generous enough to give us a new civ for free, it must be at the end to close out 4 years of Civ 6 development.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I would hope that Firaxis does some time of event, either for free or for 5-10 dollars where they go back and revisit civ designs as a whole, or create alternate abilities for civs.

For example, a persia design based off the islamic era, a war based Arabia, Scientific china, Scientific India/deblobbed India, cultural Korea, more exploration oriented Spain, earlier iteration of Scotland, Trading Canada (fur trade?), Zulu and Aztecs representing abstractions of their modern day states.

Would be interesting

 

[Jeppetto]

The chance of Trung Trac appearing as a leader is pretty much 0% at this point. Why would they add her in November just to change her in January? The idea for the whole pass must be planned out before any of this got announced, so it is not like adding a city-state in this expansion just to change its name the next expansion to make room for a new civ.

And I also think if Firaxis is generous enough to give us a new civ for free, it must be at the end to close out 4 years of Civ 6 development.

Maybe they wanted to represent her as both, for those with only Babylon Pack as General, for those with Vietnam and Kublai Pack as leader. Though it's true her bonus is so generic they could've represented from the get go many other people.

I would hope that Firaxis does some time of event, either for free or for 5-10 dollars where they go back and revisit civ designs as a whole, or create alternate abilities for civs.

For example, a persia design based off the islamic era, a war based Arabia, Scientific china, Scientific India/deblobbed India, cultural Korea, more exploration oriented Spain, earlier iteration of Scotland, Trading Canada (fur trade?), Zulu and Aztecs representing abstractions of their modern day states.

Would be interesting

Sounds like what alternative leaders were supposed to do. If only each of them didn't have so much graphical detail we can barely hope for them to use that feature five times.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Sounds like what alternative leaders were supposed to do. If only each of them didn't have so much graphical detail we can barely hope for them to use that feature five times.

I don’t mean alternative leaders but rather the civ abilities and designs themselves

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

more exploration oriented Spain

You mean Portugal?

Zulu and Aztecs representing abstractions of their modern day states.

I'm not sure why we need the Aztecs or the Zulu having abilities based off of Mexico or South Africa.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Maybe they wanted to represent her as both, for those with only Babylon Pack as General, for those with Vietnam and Kublai Pack as leader. Though it's true her bonus is so generic they could've represented from the get go many other people.

Nope, people who don't have the Babylon Pack still have Anshan instead of Babylon city-state, people who don't have the Maya&GC pack still have Jose de san Martin as the Great General, not Simon Bolivar. The replacements apply to all rulesets, so I still insist that if Vietnam makes it in, they will be led by someone else, there is just no point in getting Trung Trac in a few months earlier just to change her later.

 

[AntSou]

Nope, people who don't have the Babylon Pack still have Anshan instead of Babylon city-state, people who don't have the Maya&GC pack still have Jose de san Martin as the Great General, not Simon Bolivar. The replacements apply to all rulesets, so I still insist that if Vietnam makes it in, they will be led by someone else, there is just no point in getting Trung Trac in a few months earlier just to change her later.

I think you're downplaying the chances of them messing around with us just because.

Anyway, here's the Civilopedia entry for Trung Trac:

Vietnam, for much of its history a prosperous kingdom just beyond the southern edge of Chinese powers, always had to struggle for its independence – first from China, then later from France. In the third century BC, a Chinese warlord from the fallen Qin Dynasty captured the Vietnamese capital and created the state of Nanyue (Nam Việt), declaring himself the equal of the Han Emperor in China. This rankled the Chinese, and the new Han dynasty seized Nanyue and incorporated the rebellious province into the Chinese empire. But this – what the Vietnamese call the First Chinese Domination of Vietnam – was an unquiet occupation. It exploded when the husband of Trưng Trắc, the daughter of a regional general, was killed for opposing Han efforts to assimilate and integrate the [as the Han saw them] “barbarian” Vietnamese. Trưng Trắc and her sister rose up and toppled Chinese rule in the region, as Lê Văn Hưu puts it, “as easily as turning over their hands”.

Their rule was only to last three years, though, after which the Han sent a massive retaliatory force to take back the region. They did so, and the Trưng sisters were, depending on the story, either killed, committed suicide, or vanished into the sky. But they outlived the occupation, in another sense. They, along with Bà [Lady] Triệu, are revered as heroes in Vietnam, with temples, a city district, and even a public holiday named after them.

Hmmm... whoever suggested Ba Trieu may be onto something. Why mention Ba Trieu specifically? They're not the only ones revered as heroes in Vietnam.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Hmmm... whoever suggested Ba Trieu may be onto something. Why mention Ba Trieu specifically? They're not the only ones revered as heroes in Vietnam.

Probably because Trung Sisters and Ba Trieu are the hero-est figures among the revered - there are very few historical accounts talking about them, much of the materials are later records (more than a thousand years later) and/or folklores. IIRC while Trung Sisters had contemporary accounts (from Chinese side, that is), Ba Trieu is more of a William Tell style figure.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I think people mention Ba Trieu (Lady Trieu) because they think Vietnam must be led by a female leader, since we only have 1 so far this NFP, and if the 3 female leaders per expansion still holds true, it means Vietnam must be led by one. However to be fair, as a Vietnamese, Ba Trieu is even less relevant than 2 Trung sisters. Like ok, Vietnam lasted 4000 years, the Trung sisters won their rebellion and ruled for about 3 years, Ba Trieu didn't even win hers. They are mostly remembered for their spirit, not because they changed the course of history. If Firaxis wants a female Vietnamese leader that bad, they would definitely go for the Trung sisters over Ba Trieu anyday.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think you're downplaying the chances of them messing around with us just because.

Anyway, here's the Civilopedia entry for Trung Trac:


Hmmm... whoever suggested Ba Trieu may be onto something. Why mention Ba Trieu specifically? They're not the only ones revered as heroes in Vietnam.

Yeah I don't think Lady Trieu has really has a chance at all, at least over the Trung Sisters, considering she never ruled.
If they decide not to replace Trung Trac then it will definitely be a male leader.

 

[AntSou]

If Firaxis wants a female Vietnamese leader that bad, they would definitely go for the Trung sisters over Ba Trieu anyday.

Yeah I don't think Lady Trieu has really has a chance at all, at least over the Trung Sisters, considering she never ruled.
If they decide not to replace Trung Trac then it will definitely be a male leader.

I think you're seriously downplaying the following:

1 - That Firaxis would pass on an obvious female leader for no reason, especially one that has been consistently requested, in a pass which has proved to be mostly fan service;

2 - That there being a reason for them to decide against Trung Trac, it may very well have been this: the type of art that exists of Trung Trac is too simplistic for Firaxis artists to base a new model on;

3 - That being the case they'd ask themselves: "what is the next best thing?", to which Lady Trieu appears as the obvious answer:

That's a lot of fancy stuff on which you can base a unique 3D model.
---

 

[notNamed]

That's a lot of fancy stuff on which you can base a unique 3D model.

Both of the pictures are fairly late interpretation of figures drawn in contemporary style. It's Jesus wearing jeans, basically.
The latter is slightly more detailed because it can draw on the myth of this 23 year old woman being over two meters tall (hence why she's about the size of that elephant compared to other pictures in the set) and having ridiculously long breasts she carried thrown over her shoulders. And that's probably not the kind of image you'd want to base a character on. The dress is likewise, unusable. if you want to appease the historical bit.
If you wanted to do these, you'd probably just give them a generic (young) visage, throw them into some reconstructed Đông Sơn clothes and wave it off as close enough while making the locals happy. And in that case, the sisters would probably be a slightly better choice... they may lack breasts the size of arms, but they are closer to the end of Đông Sơn by some 200 years than their Three Kingdoms era colleague.

I still don't see either as too likely, though.

 

[AntSou]

Both of the pictures are fairly late interpretation of figures drawn in contemporary style. It's Jesus wearing jeans, basically.
The latter is slightly more detailed because it can draw on the myth of this 23 year old woman being over two meters tall (hence why she's about the size of that elephant compared to other pictures in the set) and having ridiculously long breasts she carried thrown over her shoulders. And that's probably not the kind of image you'd want to base a character on. The dress is likewise, unusable. if you want to appease the historical bit.
If you wanted to do these, you'd probably just give them a generic (young) visage, throw them into some reconstructed Đông Sơn clothes and wave it off as close enough while making the locals happy. And in that case, the sisters would probably be a slightly better choice... they may lack breasts the size of arms, but they are closer to the end of Đông Sơn by some 200 years than their Three Kingdoms era colleague.

I still don't see either as too likely, though.

LOL, I didn't even realise those were breasts

In any case, I don't think the bit in bold matters a lot, as proven by Cleopatra, Ambiorix, etc, as long as it is made to feel culturally distinctive.

I still think Le Loi is the likeliest, I just don't see Lady Trieu as unlikely as others here.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1 - That Firaxis would pass on an obvious female leader for no reason, especially one that has been consistently requested, in a pass which has proved to be mostly fan service;

Well they did pass on Theodora.

2 - That there being a reason for them to decide against Trung Trac, it may very well have been this: the type of art that exists of Trung Trac is too simplistic for Firaxis artists to base a new model on;

I think if Firaxis artists can create Gilgamesh or Kupe from limited sources I don't see a reason why they couldn't create Trung Trac as a 3D model from this.

still think Le Loi is the likeliest, I just don't see Lady Trieu as unlikely as others here.

I mean I would be surprised if it is Lady Treiu simply because, unlike the Trung Sisters, I don't believe she ever ruled in any form as queen of Vietnam.

 

[AntSou]

Tbf the fact they passed on Theodora makes it even more suspicious they'd also pass on a female leader for Vietnam.

I think the chances we're getting at least two female leaders in NFP are very high. So if it's not Vietnam, it would have to come in the last DLC.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Tbf the fact they passed on Theodora makes it even more suspicious they'd also pass on a female leader for Vietnam.

I think the chances we're getting at least two female leaders in NFP are very high. So if it's not Vietnam, it would have to come in the last DLC.

That's also true.
That's why I think it's likely we might be getting either Maria the Mad for Portugal or Jigonhsasee for the Iroquois in March.

They would also fill in the gap of needing an 18th-19th century leader for Europe or a precolonial leader from North America.