[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

OOOOOh, this is Cool!!! I wonder if there is a new pantheon for asking the gods to spare your civs through sacrifices of some kind... :grouphug::egypt::thumbsup:

I think meteors will be in the normal game also,apocalypse is I would guess just „disaster level 12“

Or faith going into negative territory? Damn those Metal Bands needs to be extented to Bards-Lautari times!
 
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After some thought, I am predicting the three new civs are, in rough order of priority:

* Timurids
* Vietnam
* Italy/Bulgaria

I'm really hoping this isn't the end, though, because we would still have room in a fourth season pack for really strong concepts like:

* Navajo/Apache
* Burma
* Italy/Bulgaria
* Oman/Swahili

The returning civs are harder to predict. I think Portugal is a fair bet, despite feeling conceptually shut out by Spain, England, and the Dutch. The others all feel like they have qualifiers:

* Byzantium - competing with Bulgaria, could be a Roman alternate.
* Babylon - kind of obviated by Sumeria, should really be released as a pair with Assyria if at all.
* Morocco - deserves to come back, but between the Ottomans, Mali, and Portugal would struggle to find design space.
* Siam - Khmer is serving as a placeholder and Vietnam and Burma would add more; but if we could cram all three in I think the region deserves the attention.
* Denmark - Margaret would be great and chronologically distinct from Harald and Kristina; but not much to offer mechanically to justify a third Scandinavian civ; could easily be sacrifices for the Saami.
* Iroquois - Canada fills this spot on the TSL and other NA regions would likely be prioritized before the Iroquois were added.
* Austria - vicariously represented by Hungary. Pretty unnecessary except to add another female leader.

We will definitely see some of these in some form, it's just difficult to discern which obstacles are more overcomeable.


also, khmer is not a siam placeholder. Both have presumably been alternating because Siam was a khmer breakaway state
 
How are the timurids the ancestors of the golden horde or the mongolia? they came afterwards.

Also, they’re turkic peoples, not mongol in ethnicity. the timurids were certainly not direct successors to the mongols.

Meanwhile, Babur, a direct descendent of Tamerlane founded the mughals, making them much more directly related to the mughals, although the mughals would make sense as alt leaders to india than their own empire for this current iteration of the game.

Therefore, the Timurids have a good chance of being in civ, and i’m hoping that they will be

Eh I agree with you but they did claim to be successors to the Mongols, and if I regret correctly if you go back far enough the turco-mongolic distinction becomes
From what I understand, the Massagetae were only Scythian in the broadest sense of the word.

There are several layers of Scythian cultures/tribes. The most boiled-down term of what a Scythian is would be a certain tribe from Ukraine. A slightly wider definition would include the other tribes in the area, and the broadest definition would include several other Eurasian steppe cultures (such as the Saka, Sarmatians, and Massagetae).

Let's be honest: Scythia is a huge blob civ, as their leader can barely even be considered Scythian.

Scythia is very blobby, but I kind of love it as a Frankenstein of important things. You have, all vicariously represented:

1) A more structured steppe nomad culture than the Huns.
2) A more attested kurgan culture than the PIE Yamna or similar peoples.
3) A Kazakh culture hero.

None of which could adequately flesh out a civ by themselves but together just barely make sense. If we agree that various steppe nomad people's were historically important in several aspects, then Scythia was a fun way to try and represent them all.

also, khmer is not a siam placeholder. Both have presumably been alternating because Siam was a khmer breakaway state

Well I guess that's basically what I meant. We are less likely to get both because Siam could be seen as more of a city-state to Khmer's broader influence. So I guess I would prefer we just get Bangkok as a city-state.
 
Eh I agree with you but they did claim to be successors to the Mongols, and if I regret correctly if you go back far enough the turco-mongolic distinction becomes


Scythia is very blobby, but I kind of love it as a Frankenstein of important things. You have, all vicariously represented:

1) A more structured steppe nomad culture than the Huns.
2) A more attested kurgan culture than the PIE Yamna or similar peoples.
3) A Kazakh culture hero.

None of which could adequately flesh out a civ by themselves but together just barely make sense. If we agree that various steppe nomad people's were historically important in several aspects, then Scythia was a fun way to try and represent them all.



Well I guess that's basically what I meant. We are less likely to get both because Siam could be seen as more of a city-state to Khmer's broader influence. So I guess I would prefer we just get Bangkok as a city-state.

i’m hoping that we don’t, simply because i don’t want sukritact siam to be out of commission for a while
 
Regarding the Timurids, I think they have a big disadvantage that's similar to Charlemagne's Frankish Empire, which is, they were an empire forged by conquests, that doesn't really have a cultural "heir" state these days... Mongolia is easy to have as a civ, because there is a Mongolian state currently. But for Timurids and Franks, their legacy is spread throughout many current states, so it makes it hard to depict them as a homogeneous civilization.
 
also, khmer is not a siam placeholder. Both have presumably been alternating because Siam was a khmer breakaway state
In this iteration the Khmer have taken the place of the mainland "SEA" sphere of influence which is what I think is being implied. Their unique infrastructure is the "Prasat" which is also used by the Thai, which shows the influence the Khmer has over the whole region. I'm sure if they wanted to make it truly unique they could have gone with the Baray but their influence is more widespread which is what the Prasat is supposed to represent.

The same thing can be said of Mali, being a placeholder for the Songhai as the Western Africa representation for this game. Though you can also argue that Siam and Songhai were the original placeholders for Khmer and Mali in Civ 5.

Scythia is very blobby, but I kind of love it as a Frankenstein of important things. You have, all vicariously represented:

1) A more structured steppe nomad culture than the Huns.
2) A more attested kurgan culture than the PIE Yamna or similar peoples.
3) A Kazakh culture hero.

None of which could adequately flesh out a civ by themselves but together just barely make sense. If we agree that various steppe nomad people's were historically important in several aspects, then Scythia was a fun way to try and represent them all.
I agree. They are a better representation of a nomadic steppe people in a game about building a civilization, at least more so than the Huns.
 
PLEASE LET THE NEW LEADER BE TOKUGAWA
 
Regarding the Timurids, I think they have a big disadvantage that's similar to Charlemagne's Frankish Empire, which is, they were an empire forged by conquests, that doesn't really have a cultural "heir" state these days... Mongolia is easy to have as a civ, because there is a Mongolian state currently. But for Timurids and Franks, their legacy is spread throughout many current states, so it makes it hard to depict them as a homogeneous civilization.
the same is true of gran colombia, or scythia, tbh
 
Would like to see Kublai Khan be a hybrid leader for the Mongols/China like Eleanor of Aquitaine.

I think he’d be absolutely perfect for the role.
 
I think that Scythia covers that area pretty well so I'm not sure there is a need for another nomadic civ from Central Asia.
Plenty of room for a settled one, though. I'd still love to see Sogdia. :D

From what I understand, the Massagetae were only Scythian in the broadest sense of the word.

There are several layers of Scythian cultures/tribes. The most boiled-down term of what a Scythian is would be a certain tribe from Ukraine. A slightly wider definition would include the other tribes in the area, and the broadest definition would include several other Eurasian steppe cultures (such as the Saka, Sarmatians, and Massagetae).

Let's be honest: Scythia is a huge blob civ, as their leader can barely even be considered Scythian.
To be fair, "Scythian" is a pretty blobby term. At the best of times, the Greeks used the term to mean specific Iranian horse nomads in Eastern Europe; at other times, they used the term to mean any Iranian horse nomads anywhere on the Eurasian steppe; at the worst of times, it just meant any horse nomads anywhere, regardless of linguistic or ethnic affiliation. The Persians' use of Saka frankly wasn't much better. I like Tomyris, even though I'm skeptical she existed, but in Civ7 I'd really like to see the Scythians replaced with the much more concrete Parthians. (Plus that would finally be a Persian dynasty other than the Achaemenids.)

PLEASE LET THE NEW LEADER BE TOKUGAWA
I can't see Tokugawa playing differently from Hojo in any meaningful way. Of all the civs that could use a second leader, I'd put Japan pretty close to the bottom.
 
:lol:

It's actually that she doesn't sound snobbish enough! Her voice is just a normal, fairly pleasant voice like a BBC news presenter. She needs to be a bit more Hyacinth Bucket!

Hyacinth deliberately did not have an upper class accent - she was a lower-middle-class woman doing what she thought of as an RP accent. There's only a single recording of Victoria, and it's poor quality as it was extremely early, but from what I can make out her voice sounds much closer to what we'd characterise as a modern middle-class RP accent than English stereotypes of aristocratic voices, or the current Qiueen.


Ironically, when John Finnemore wrote a comic radio play based around the story of this recording, Queen Victoria was actually played by Patricia Routledge (who played Hyacinth).

I see lots of attacks on Firaxis and Amplitude saying they are terrible at AI, but I think that comes from a deep misunderstanding. Making good AI takes time, alot of time. I would go so far to say it's the most time consuming part of programming a 4x game. However a AI programmer only has the same amount of time to work on the game as everyone else.

The problem is that they make game systems the AI is not able to use effectively - Civ IV performed better than Civ V, and Civ V better than Civ VI, because the game systems were designed to be more AI-friendly (Civ V wasn't at all AI-friendly, but moreso than Civ VI). Games that have poorly-performing AI are badly-designed games not because of the time devoted to AI coding, but because you shouldn't design systems you don't have the resources to support with additional investment in AI programming. I'd say the Civ V AI did pretty well given that the game it needed to work with was an order of magnitude more complex than Civ IV from an AI decision-making perspective.

There are, however, some areas where the mechanics haven't changed drastically but the AI is making mistakes that older AIs weren't or that were fixed during the game's lifetime - combat in Civ VI is a prime example, with the AI's poor combat priority behaviour, difficulties with using embarking/disembarking effectively, and very limited ability to use aircraft (and nonexistent ability to use AA units, something that in contrast Civ V loved to spam whether or not there were any aircraft anywhere). Some of its poor combat performance relative to Civ V relates to the fact that Civ V AIs got free bonus units en masse and simply had much larger armies, so they could afford a bit more clumsiness in using those units - but there are still individual decisions it makes that indicate the AI is not as well-implemented for exactly the same individual tasks as Civ V's (and it was much worse when Civ VI released)

There are a whole range of English accents other than RP (received pronunciation, the 'TV newsreader' accent) and cockney ;) I think the problem I have with Victoria is she uses what's called a modern RP - so she sounds too modern to me. If you listen to really old BBC radio recordings that's more the sort of accent I feel she should have. Also she needs to sound more shrill and high-pitched!

FWIW my accent is actually quite close to Victoria's in-game. Maybe that's why I don't like it :lol:

ETA: I do get that it's harder to distinguish between regional accents if you're not from that part of the world. For instance I can't always tell if someone is Canadian or American which I probably shouldn't admit to on here :mischief:

Bear in mind that the Civ leaders are there as stand-ins for caricatures/stereotypes of the civ as a whole, not necessarily an effort to accurately portray the voices or dialogue of those characters. So Victoria deliberately speaks with an accent that reflects the most common type of English accent with which most Civ players will be familiar (come on, Robert the Bruce speaks Old English with what seems to be a deliberate approximation of *a Scottish accent*, which is ridiculously anachronistic).

After some thought, I am predicting the three new civs are, in rough order of priority:

* Timurids
* Vietnam
* Italy/Bulgaria

I'm really hoping this isn't the end, though, because we would still have room in a fourth season pack for really strong concepts like:

* Navajo/Apache
* Burma
* Italy/Bulgaria
* Oman/Swahili

The returning civs are harder to predict. I think Portugal is a fair bet, despite feeling conceptually shut out by Spain, England, and the Dutch. The others all feel like they have qualifiers:

* Byzantium - competing with Bulgaria, could be a Roman alternate.
* Babylon - kind of obviated by Sumeria, should really be released as a pair with Assyria if at all.
* Morocco - deserves to come back, but between the Ottomans, Mali, and Portugal would struggle to find design space.
* Siam - Khmer is serving as a placeholder and Vietnam and Burma would add more; but if we could cram all three in I think the region deserves the attention.
* Denmark - Margaret would be great and chronologically distinct from Harald and Kristina; but not much to offer mechanically to justify a third Scandinavian civ; could easily be sacrifices for the Saami.
* Iroquois - Canada fills this spot on the TSL and other NA regions would likely be prioritized before the Iroquois were added.
* Austria - vicariously represented by Hungary. Pretty unnecessary except to add another female leader.

We will definitely see some of these in some form, it's just difficult to discern which obstacles are more overcomeable.

My expectation, presuming a likely regional breakdown:

Europe: Portugal, Italy?
Asia: Babylon, Vietnam
Africa: Ethiopia (confirmed)
Central America: Maya (confirmed)
North America: Probably an American rather than a Canadian tribe, maybe returning Sioux or Iroquois, possibly a new group such as the Mississipian culture
South America: Gran Colombia (confirmed)
Australasia (if present - this is the most likely to be replaced by Italy): An Australian or New Guinean Aboriginal group

The main difficulty with this breakdown is that it doesn't naturally lend itself to a two-civ pack if that pack is themed. Maya and Gran Colombia have nothing in common, but they do share a broad geography. Possibly there'll be a two-civ European pack with Portugal and Italy.

also, khmer is not a siam placeholder. Both have presumably been alternating because Siam was a khmer breakaway state

I think the developers said outright that Siam was in Civ V in place of the Khmer, and chosen because it was an emerging market for the game (you're not going to get many sales in Cambodia, which is much poorer and has atrocious internet in areas where it's available). I still wish they hadn't used that name - either Thailand to encompass the entire state's history under the modern name, even if focused on a specific part of its medieval history (as with Indonesia) or Sukothai, the name of the period they chose. 'Siam' represents a specific later period centred around Ayutthaya, Lopburi and Bangkok, much further to the south.

Also, both of the SE Asian civs we have in the game are medieval, as Burma/Pagan would also be if added. Vietnam offers later well-known time periods (as indeed does Siam, but then that would be a sufficiently different treatment from Civ V that people who want it back likely wouldn't be satisfied) - and is a very common fan request. I don't think this season pass was any kind of replacement for a 3rd expansion - I suspect it exists just to add fan-requested civs to the roster as I recall quite a lot of dissatisfaction here that Civ VI went too far in adding new civs at the expense of expected/popular returnees, and unlike an expansion it doesn't seem to offer any new mechanical content. So civs that are either returning or have been requested vocally by fans are likely to be the priorities for addition.
 
the same is true of gran colombia, or scythia, tbh
Not really, with Gran Colombia it's easier because no one's asking to have a separate Colombia, Venezuela or Equador civs. With Gran Colombia they can represent those three countries with a single stroke, and their cultures are similar. Scythia is a very old civ that basically has no direct heirs, they're like Sumer or Hittites for that matter, they can be represented just for themselves. Timurids on the other hand have directed influenced every country in a triangular area located between Uzbekistan, Iran and Pakistan. Those are wildly different countries, and you have to think of how you'd depict the Timurids, there isn't a base culture.
 
Robert the Bruce speaks Old English with what seems to be a deliberate approximation of *a Scottish accent*, which is ridiculously anachronistic
Not at all. He speaks Northumbrian Middle English, the ancestor of the Scots language. His delivery is about as flat as anything I've ever heard, but his pronunciation isn't bad at all. Sort of the polar opposite of Gilgamesh (good delivery, bad pronunciation), if you will. He ought to be speaking Norman, but it's highly likely he also spoke Northumbrian Middle English. It could be worse: I more than half expected him to speak Gaelic, which would have been an anachronism.
 
Not at all. He speaks Northumbrian Middle English, the ancestor of the Scots language. His delivery is about as flat as anything I've ever heard, but his pronunciation isn't bad at all. Sort of the polar opposite of Gilgamesh (good delivery, bad pronunciation), if you will. He ought to be speaking Norman, but it's highly likely he also spoke Northumbrian Middle English. It could be worse: I more than half expected him to speak Gaelic, which would have been an anachronism.

I know the language he's speaking (you're correct, I should more correctly have said Middle English), but the inflection sounds very Scottish to me - or at least typical of North American efforts to sound Scottish. I get a definite James Doohan vibe from him.
 
I know the language he's speaking (you're correct, I should more correctly have said Middle English), but the inflection sounds very Scottish to me - or at least typical of North American efforts to sound Scottish. I get a definite James Doohan vibe from him.

Gah, he's not American! He's the voice of BBC Radio Scotland!
 
I know the language he's speaking (you're correct, I should more correctly have said Middle English), but the inflection sounds very Scottish to me - or at least typical of North American efforts to sound Scottish. I get a definite James Doohan vibe from him.
Fair, but he's not speaking the dialect of Chaucer or even the Gawain poet. Though the Old English phase of Northumbrian is better known than its Middle English phase, I don't think Robert's pronunciation sounds too off. I think it's his prosody more than his pronunciation.
 
Bear in mind that the Civ leaders are there as stand-ins for caricatures/stereotypes of the civ as a whole, not necessarily an effort to accurately portray the voices or dialogue of those characters.

I don't think this is the case. That seems like a description of what they are attempting to accomplish with Humankind.

They're trying to create Leaders with interesting personalities and easily distinguishable from one another. Victoria's body language and Eleanor's are completely different, yet they represent the same Civ. Same for CdM vs Eleanor.
 
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Thanks for the information @PhilBowles.

I'm not going to dispute anything said on the subject of accents by those who are clearly better informed, but nevertheless, I find her accent in the game incredibly jarring because it doesn't seem to fit with the character's appearance and I do think it sounds too modern. I get the stereotype thing but the funny thing is if someone said 'posh, snobbish-sounding British accent' that is not what I would have come up with. But as I say, my own accent is similar, so maybe that says more about me :lol: I think she should sound more like Elizabeth from V (who, as even I know, will not have sounded anything like that and probably ought to have spoken with more authentic early modern pronunciation).
 
:lol:

If my dream last night is anything to go by, we will be getting Italy, Vietnam, Kievan Rus' and Portugal.

(Don't get your hopes up. I feel it's safe to reveal this 'spoiler' because I was invited to a special exclusive premiere of a full announcement trailer, in a proper fancy theatre and everything, apparently in the middle of a pandemic, so this is just suggestive of lockdown making me miss going to see plays and movies more than anything :crazyeye: )
 
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