[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[pokiehl]

I never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out that the presence of Cleopatra, Gilgamesh, Victoria, and so on means that pop culture credentials and name recognition are factors that at least some of the time they consider. I said nothing about how that factors into speculation.

I never said it wasn't. I said that it's silly to 100% disregard the idea that Firaxis will choose a leader who is not well-known for any given civ. I didn't say they never choose well-known leaders or that renown isn't a factor.

 

[Zaarin]

I never said it wasn't. I said that it's silly to 100% disregard the idea that Firaxis will choose a leader who is not well-known for any given civ. I didn't say they never choose well-known leaders or that renown isn't a factor.

True, but I think 9 times out of 10 they will choose a popular, famous leader for popular, famous civilizations (the odd exceptions like CdM and Seondeok don't disprove the tendency--also the "odd exceptions" are almost all women and there are no women to lead Babylon--even Shammuramat of Assyria would be a very, very dubious choice).

 

[Revanchist]

Firaxis has been known to reach for leader choices that they want to feel inclusive, I'm looking at you Jadwiga. There have been some good choices that weren't too obscure, but not that well known either like Tamar and Pachacuti, but they have definitely picked leaders that were well known.

I don't really care if the leader is a female, but I think they need to be historically significant and well known to justify inclusion. Tamar is an example of a good female choice, but people like Catherine De Medici leave me to second guess their choices. For a lot of these civilizations it is not that their female pick is bad per se, but it is that, when, compared to some of the other choices like Louis and Napoleon, it is a bit disappointing.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

For a lot of these civilizations it is not that their female pick is bad per se, but it is that, when, compared to some of the other choices like Louis and Napoleon, it is a bit disappointing.

Napoleon was in civilization V and in civilization IV and Louis XIV was also in civilization IV.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't really care if the leader is a female, but I think they need to be historically significant and well known to justify inclusion. Tamar is an example of a good female choice, but people like Catherine De Medici leave me to second guess their choices.

IMO CdM, Cleopatra, and Victoria have been their only really dubious choices, but even those can be justified. CdM would not be in my top 10 choices for France, but she was a woman of extraordinary influence and her in-game persona is charming. I'd say that the biggest argument against her isn't even her own significance but that that persona could easily have been given to, say, Wu Zetian. As for Cleopatra, she was brilliant but unfortunate, but the biggest strike against here is that Egypt has several better choices even just for female leaders. Victoria's just boring; any of Elizabeth I, Mary I, or Empress Matilda would have been more interesting. I'd say the rest of Civ6's female choices have been fine.

compared to some of the other choices like Louis and Napoleon

I will gleefully take CdM over Napoleon again. In fact, when Civ7 rolls around, if my choices are CdM or Napoleon, I will welcome CdM back. Yes, France has a good dozen better choices than CdM--but Napoleon has worn out his welcome. And while I'd enjoy the return of Le Roi Soleil, France has no shortage of good leaders that it needs to be stuck with the same two or three for all eternity; I'd be happy to see any of Henri IV, Francis I, Philippe Auguste, Louis IX, Cardinal Mazarin or Cardinal Richelieu, etc. Frankly at this point I'd take Marie Antoinette over Napoleon again. I'd even take Louis Philippe, but only if he's portrayed as a charmingly obtuse emperor penguin.

 

[Revanchist]

Napoleon was in civilization V and in civilization IV and Louis XIV was also in civilization IV.

Gandhi, Shaka, and Elizabeth have appeared in numerous games

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Gandhi, Shaka, and Elizabeth have appeared in numerous games

Gandhi and Shaka seems to be the exception. Elizabeth have been in civilization III, IV and V.

 

[Zaarin]

Gandhi and Shaka seems to be the exception. Elizabeth have been in civilization III, IV and V.

Elizabeth has been in every Civ game except VI (which is a shame because she's probably the only perennial I would have really been excited to see back; hopefully she returns in VII).

 

[The Kingmaker]

Elizabeth has been in every Civ game except VI (which is a shame because she's probably the only perennial I would have really been excited to see back; hopefully she returns in VII).

Blame Civ5’s annoying portrayal. No, I would not consider a trade agreement with Ing-glund.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . I will gleefully take CdM over Napoleon again. In fact, when Civ7 rolls around, if my choices are CdM or Napoleon, I will welcome CdM back. Yes, France has a good dozen better choices than CdM--but Napoleon has worn out his welcome. And while I'd enjoy the return of Le Roi Soleil, France has no shortage of good leaders that it needs to be stuck with the same two or three for all eternity; I'd be happy to see any of Henri IV, Francis I, Philippe Auguste, Louis IX, Cardinal Mazarin or Cardinal Richelieu, etc. Frankly at this point I'd take Marie Antoinette over Napoleon again. I'd even take Louis Philippe, but only if he's portrayed as a charmingly obtuse emperor penguin.

France's "problem" is that it has a host of good and different Leaders throughout its history. Even when the titular king was mediocre, up popped really good subordinate Ministers and Leaders like Richelieu, Mazarin, Colbert, Vauban, Louvois - it's a real Surplus of choices.

If I had to throw in my own picks, it would be two:
Military: Henri IV, with the bonus that he can change religions or anything else as needed to obtain a diplomatic or military result. One of the most pragmatic leaders in history and one of the most accomplished Battle Leaders of all the French kings, and the only one in a league with Napoleon in that regard.
Domestic: Louis XIII. Established the Absolute Monarchy, reduced drastically the power of the nobility, set the preconditions for most of what Louis XIV is supposed to have accomplished. His bonus could be Super Governors like Richelieu, who affect the whole country or some aspect like Diplomacy or Loyalty, or the ability to 'pick' Great People since his reign had an abundance of them: Richelieu, Vauban, Conde, Turenne, etc.

 

[Haig]

I'm wondering if Khmer was this game's Siam so to speak, and Vietnam will have to wait for Civ 7.

Vietnam civ plus a Mongolian or Korean alt.leader would make a fun dlc but I think Genghis and Seondeol are fine.

But gameplay wise (not about how Egypt etc need alt leader) Netherlands or Scotland could really use a new leader.

I also think that NFP will include at least two more female leaders, wonder who they are.
Theodora of Byzantium in DLC3 maybe?

Oh and I would design Portugal as opposite of Maya civ: new cities are stronger when far away from capital.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

genghis and shaka rightfully appear over and over bcs they’re the best choices for their civ, even if there are other good options (see: Kublai, Ogadai, Cetshwayo)

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

compared to some of the other choices like Louis and Napoleon

Be more precise when you talk about Louis; we had eighteen of them

I will gleefully take CdM over Napoleon again. In fact, when Civ7 rolls around, if my choices are CdM or Napoleon, I will welcome CdM back. Yes, France has a good dozen better choices than CdM--but Napoleon has worn out his welcome. And while I'd enjoy the return of Le Roi Soleil, France has no shortage of good leaders that it needs to be stuck with the same two or three for all eternity; I'd be happy to see any of Henri IV, Francis I, Philippe Auguste, Louis IX, Cardinal Mazarin or Cardinal Richelieu, etc. Frankly at this point I'd take Marie Antoinette over Napoleon again. I'd even take Louis Philippe, but only if he's portrayed as a charmingly obtuse emperor penguin.

Seconded. We don't need a megalomaniac tyrant. I would even prefer Louis the Posthumus as a leader for France over Napoléon if I had the choice.

France's "problem" is that it has a host of good and different Leaders throughout its history. Even when the titular king was mediocre, up popped really good subordinate Ministers and Leaders like Richelieu, Mazarin, Colbert, Vauban, Louvois - it's a real Surplus of choices.

Another Problem with France and inclusivity is that France is notoriously a masculinist country. The rules of succession for the throne were so strict that women could not even dream of going on it. I don't record any other country that was so adamant on the "no girls allowed" for their rules of successions. England and Spain have good notorious examples of queens, Sweden had some too, and even Poland had female kings. But in France, we were so afraid of "if she married a foreigner and the kingdom is the dot then the Throne would go to a foreign prince! Heinous!". So, by having CdM as a female ruler for France (even if she was Italian, wich seems odd for me) is frankly one of the best choices.

Domestic: Louis XIII. Established the Absolute Monarchy, reduced drastically the power of the nobility, set the preconditions for most of what Louis XIV is supposed to have accomplished. His bonus could be Super Governors like Richelieu, who affect the whole country or some aspect like Diplomacy or Loyalty, or the ability to 'pick' Great People since his reign had an abundance of them: Richelieu, Vauban, Conde, Turenne, etc.

For a domestic leader for France, my prefered choice would be Louis XI (we would have been perfect for an espionage France) because he's so underestimated but did so much for France. Our Post Office was his initiative for example, to be free of the postal monopoly of the Tour-et-Tassis. Truly he's the best one when it's a matter of domestic improvement. But since he was extremely intelligent and people tend to be afraid of smart people, especially when they use their intelligence in dubious ways, then they consider them evil. He was called L'Universelle Aragne (the Universal Spider), but his official nickname was The Careful, and in a world full of reckless people, having a leader called The Careful would be a welcomed choice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm wondering if Khmer was this game's Siam so to speak, and Vietnam will have to wait for Civ 7.

Khmer heavily influenced later Siam/Thailand so that could be the case. I don't see why Vietnam would have to wait because I think we are going to get another civ from somewhere in East Asia.

I also think that NFP will include at least two more female leaders, wonder who they are.
Theodora of Byzantium in DLC3 maybe?

Trung Sisters or just Trung Trac of Vietnam could be a possibility.

 

[GenyaArikado]

We already have Lady Six Sky though. Though I could see Theodora possibly taking the spot.

Too matronly to be a waifu

Moderator Action: This is not a good road to go down. Enough of this please. leif

Obviously the base game waifu was gilgamesh, not cleopatra.

I would accept this

That's a husbando

Gandhi and Shaka seems to be the exception. Elizabeth have been in civilization III, IV and V.

Liz was in all of them until 6. Some part of me still wants her in, even if that means England with 4 leaders

 

[Zaarin]

But gameplay wise (not about how Egypt etc need alt leader) Netherlands or Scotland could really use a new leader.

For balance, an alt leader of Netherlands or Scotland would have to be just as bland and boring as the original was.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Just another reminder that the V Leaders Reborn mod means that those who want them can eventually have a FXS-quality Napoleon, Elizabeth or William of Orange in game.

 

[Jeppetto]

at this point I'd take Marie Antoinette over Napoleon again.

UNIQUE Ability - Let Them Eat Cake - +1 Food from each Luxury Resource in a City. Lose game when you reach 0 Gold in Treasury. Lul.

also think that NFP will include at least two more female leaders, wonder who they are.
Theodora of Byzantium in DLC3 maybe?

I expect Theodora for Byzantium and Jikonhsaseh (yes I copy-pasted her name) for Iroquis

 

[Zaarin]

I expect Theodora for Byzantium and Jikonhsaseh (yes I copy-pasted her name) for Iroquis

Despite being a safe choice, I'm not really expecting the Iroquois (though I wouldn't object if they were chosen); I'm expecting someone new for Native North America. I'm hoping we can finally ditch Justinian and Theodora and have someone more interesting (*cough*Alexios*cough*) for Byzantium.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

For balance, an alt leader of Netherlands or Scotland would have to be just as bland and boring as the original was.

For me, Robert and Wilhelmina are my least favorite leaders in the game (not personality-wise, strictly because of their lackluster abilities.) Even though I would like to take Scotland and Netherlands in a new direction, you make a good point. Any alt would overshadow the original leader. There would be no point of playing the originals if the alt was at least semi-decent.

At least all the other alts provide something different without overshadowing. Gorgo makes Greece more militaristic, same with Chandragupta. But it doesn't mean people won't still play Pericles or Gandhi, because they still have a place in the game.