[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[PhoenicianGold]

On the one hand, I feel like dlc 5 should have a female leader, since I really doubt Portugal or Assyria in DLC 6 will have female leaders, and we have now had three male leaders in a row.

And I am still convinced that we will not revisit Europe (if at all) until DLC 6. So none of the European female leader options seem likely for DLC 4.

Although part of me suspects we will just get Maria or Shammurammat in an Assyria/Portugal split wrapping up the game, the strong motivation to add a non-European female leader for DLC 4 gives me hope.

My best guesses would be Nanyehi for the Cherokee or Diyha/Sayyida al Hurra for the Berbers (with Sayyida being generally an inferior choice). Maybe a narrow chance of Nur Jahan leading the Gurkhani, or, if the devs go completely left field, something like Amina, Ranavalona, or Arwa Al-Sulayhi.

My hopes are that we get Diyha and a plan to revisit North America in season two. I still think the most politically correct way to have a native american DLC would be to group it with other civs, preferably other native civs like we got the Cree and Mapuche in R&F. Even big nations like the Navajo and Cherokee just feel safer from a PR standpoint if they were included together or with something like the Inuit, or a PNW civ, or a Caribbean civ.

 

[almughavar]

Maybe it's already too late to suggest Vietnamese specifications, but regardless:

+ Leader bonus: "People's War" - effects from war weariness reduced by 50% (or accumulating 50% less war weariness), +50% Production toward support units.

+ Civ ability: "Descendants Of Dragon And Celestial" - Building a farm on tiles with rice, wheat or maze triggers a Culture Bomb, claiming surrounding tiles. Fertilization rates from floods will always be 100% even if dams were built. One military policy slot in every government is converted into wildcard policy slot.

+ Regarding unique unit(s), beside the guerilla soldiers which are the most well known unit of Vietnam to most people, I could also think of other units below:

Vietnam's unique unit could be elephant, similar to the Elephant Artillery in Medieval 2: Total War. The Tay Son rebels (who later on established the Tay Son Dynasty) was famous for their Elephant Artillery. Other Vietnamese dynasties also employed elephants throughout history. But elephant artillery may overlap with Varu and Domrey of India and Khmer, respectively.

Another UU I could think of was a type of crossbowmen who were armed with repeating or multi-shot crossbows, or maybe crews employing a siege engine which resembling a ballista but unlike ballista it could discharge multiple crossbow bolts simultaneously instead. The repeating crossbow would resemble the "Chu Ko Nu" unit of China in Civ 4 and AoE II, though Vietnamese had invented and employed the weapon much sooner than Chinese. The multi-shot crossbow/ballista weapon is quite different, in this case it can discharge multiple bolts at once, not firing one bolt after another like the repeating crossbow. Vietnamese employed that type of weapon as far back as the time of Âu Lạc kingdom.

+ Unique infrastructure: Water Puppet theater (Entertainment Complex building) - replacing Arena. Effect: +1 Amenity, which extends to cities whose City Center are up to 6 tiles away from the district. Other than that it provides the same bonuses as the Arena it replaced.

+ Starting bias: Floodplains.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

On the one hand, I feel like dlc 5 should have a female leader, since I really doubt Portugal or Assyria in DLC 6 will have female leaders, and we have now had three male leaders in a row.

Why dose it matter though?
Who gives a crap if a leader is male or female? As long as they have a good reason why they are leader.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My hopes are that we get Diyha and a plan to revisit North America in season two. I still think the most politically correct way to have a native american DLC would be to group it with other civs, preferably other native civs like we got the Cree and Mapuche in R&F. Even big nations like the Navajo and Cherokee just feel safer from a PR standpoint if they were included together or with something like the Inuit, or a PNW civ, or a Caribbean civ.

If we somehow magically got two Native American civs I feel like they would want to pair a new one with an old one, like they've been doing. In that case the Iroquois would probably be the safe bet along with something else that's new.

 

[Starina]

As a Polish, I am categorically against Stalin in your avatar

As a Polish, you would not mind knowing under whose direct leadership Poland was liberated. Whose friend was second Ministry of National Defense. And what social reforms were carried out in Poland while she was in Eastern Bloc, the beginning of which was laid by Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. Although today in the West it is fashionable to call it "accupation"

It is kinda weird to condemn one criminal and affirm the other one, even bigger

Yes Yes Yes. Stalin still ate babies for breakfast ... I heard it a million times, but I never saw a single fact or sane logical reasoning
And also Stalin is a direct follower of Lenin's cause. Whose face is also on my avatar and who was the leaders in civilization 2. What a twist!

But we digress from the topic)

Moderator Action: Yes, stick to the topic and let us not divert to these issues. leif

 

[Abaxial]

<Inserts tongue in cheek> For an alternative Chinese leader, how about Chiang Kai-Shek?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

As a Polish, you would not mind knowing under whose direct leadership Poland was liberated. Whose friend was second Ministry of National Defense. And what social reforms were carried out in Poland while she was in Eastern Bloc, the beginning of which was laid by Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. Although today in the West it is fashionable to call it "accupation"
]

1. Poland was not liberated after World War II just changed one external dictatorship to another. The only difference between those two is during WWII Poland was occupied, and after WWII Poland was a puppet state. Both have nothing to do with "liberation".
2. Social reforms should never justify corruption, crimes, and any dictatorships (perhaps it would be better for Russians to notice this small fact).
3. Poland was a part of Eastern Block not due to the democratic will of a Nation, but due to rigged elections and Soviet tanks.
It refers not only to Poland but also to Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Eastern Germans, Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians. If you still claim this was our democratic decision to be a part of Eastern Block I just want you to remind Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968.

End of this off-topic.

Moderator Action: Yes, enough, you were warned. Take it to the History forum, this is NOT the place. leif

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Why dose it matter though?
Who gives a crap if a leader is male or female? As long as they have a good reason why they are leader.

Well we are anticipating three female leaders this season, and Trying Trac is probably one of them in expack 5.

Again, it's just a feeling I have, for several reasons:

1) Again, DLC 6 is probably a strong finish with Portugal or Assyria, and nobody seems very enthused about their only likely female options, Maria or Shammurammat. So that would suggest that DLC 4 would be the one with a female leader.

2) Given how calculated prior releases have been with their gender distribution, I have a suspicion that the reason why we always add twice as many male leaders as female leaders, so as not to disrupt a male-default gaming market, is the same reason why the devs may have a slight motivation to avoid finishing the season with a female leader. The last things in lists tend to impress the most, and there is already some vocal backlash in the civ community regarding the inclusion of excessive/undeserving female leaders (which to me is just thinly veiled sexism). Again, motivation to sandwich the third female leader in between packs instead of releasing her last.

3) It just feels like a more elegant, even spread to have M-F-M-M-M-F-M-F-M, than a long run if male leaders in the middle: M-F-M-M-M-M-M-F-F.

 

[notNamed]

<Inserts tongue in cheek> For an alternative Chinese leader, how about Chiang Kai-Shek?

Hey now, Sun Yat-sen/Zhongshan could be a pretty fun choice, if only you could get around mentioning the controversial parts of history that came after him.
AFAIK (and well, 8house could confirm/deny this) he's got decent legacy on both sides of the Taiwan strait. Not that China's lacking in options for leaders. Plus point for being able to throw in someone who speaks Cantonese.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1) Again, DLC 6 is probably a strong finish with Portugal or Assyria, and nobody seems very enthused about their only likely female options, Maria or Shammurammat. So that would suggest that DLC 4 would be the one with a female leader.

Part of me feels like they will both be in DLC 4 and DLC 6, with the possibly of Assyria being Babylon with no female leader so that would leave Maria I for Portugal.

I would like to be proven wrong however and see something from North Africa or Native American which might mean we get a second season of DLC.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Hey now, Sun Yat-sen/Zhongshan could be a pretty fun choice, if only you could get around mentioning the controversial parts of history that came after him. AFAIK (and well, 8house could confirm/deny this) he's got decent legacy on both sides of the Taiwan strait. Not that China's lacking in options for leaders. Plus point for being able to throw in someone who speaks Cantonese.

I think the original post was intended to make a joke on that, but all things considered, he surely is the least controversial figure in modern Chinese history (not to say he isn't controversial, for example he ordered assassinations of his political rivals/ordered his troops to attack civilians more than one time in a political realm which still largely honors decency and fairplay - he was the initiator of many bad precedents that came after him) and got a decent legacy on both sides of the strait/HK/oversea Chinese etc.

I would say he will be very similar to the situation of Gandhi: a political figure that hadn't really "lead" the country (Sun never hold a national office) but still has a lasting legacy and being honored by a lot of people across the political spectrum.

The problem is still that modern leaders will certainly be more controversial and we still have a lot of interesting picks in history.

On a side note, if we cannot get a Cantonese civ in the future (it would be interesting, but very, very unlikely) then Sun will be the best Cantonese choice.

 

[notNamed]

On a side note, if we cannot get a Cantonese civ in the future (it would be interesting, but very, very unlikely) then Sun will be the best Cantonese choice.

I can imagine designing a simple specifically Cantonese civ and tagging it on the shoulders of Hong Kong/Macao. Though I'm not sure it's the best way to show these things off.
Though making him a pseudo-representative of Cantonese as such could work. Like have him bring a red-eye junk (simple name for a thing I once read about but can't find now... whatever the name is, a war junk with cannons sounds like an okay representative of Canton and thereabouts) as a unit, some trade as well as revolutionary bonuses could work.
If you made it into a proper full-time civ, you'd need city names, some special infrastructure (like a casino for Macao, or a film studio for Hong Kong? IDK, you've probably got a better idea for something), some traditional Cantonese-only song for its theme. All around I see it more as one of the better ways to make an alternative option for China rather than a fully-fledged civ but finding ways to make these work is a part of the thread's charm, it it not?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Though making him a pseudo-representative of Cantonese as such could work.

The problem is that Sun was actually far more "Chinese" than "Cantonese" - he was born in Hawaii, remained as an oversea Chinese (very different than Chinese who still lived in the Sinosphere) for the majority of his life, and was deeply entrenched in the idea of a homogeneous China.
In particular, he refused to support Canton/Guangdong regionalism in every situation; he drove a Guangdong local leader (Chen Jiongming) out of the power in order to use the province as an operation base for his "Chinese" ideal, and probably had another regionalism activist (Ou jujia) assassinated before the Revolution.

That's why I said if we cannot get a Cantonese civ in the future then Sun will be fine, because if we do get a Cantonese civ then Sun is really unfit. Kind of like making Trotsky a Russian leader - it can work, just not work well.

If you made it into a proper full-time civ, you'd need city names, some special infrastructure (like a casino for Macao, or a film studio for Hong Kong? IDK, you've probably got a better idea for something), some traditional Cantonese-only song for its theme. All around I see it more as one of the better ways to make an alternative option for China rather than a fully-fledged civ but finding ways to make these work is a part of the thread's charm, it it not?

For infrastructure/civ ability, Guangdong is known for its Ancestral Hall (宗祠), as during Ming and Qing Dynasties a lot of social organizations - including "modern" organizations such as corporations, local council, and even women's associations - in the province was operated in the form of a clan/linage*.

The Cantonese Ancestral Hall can be a unique improvement, 1 per city, unlocked by Guilds, can double the output of other improvements (Farms, Mines, Lumber Mills, etc) adjacent to it, for the Cantonese AH was a unique social organization that can mobilize people and their output.
(Or can increase the yield of the adjacent districts by 10% or 20%.)

Moreover, this Ancestral Hall/Clan/Linage focus is very different from the rest of China (besides Hokkien and Hakka people, who also organized themselves around the clan and also live in Southern China), different parts of China organizes quite differently (you will be surprised to know that there are deeply Christian regions in Northern China). So I would say Cantonese representation doesn't fit an alternative option for China because it is so different and unique, while it also doesn't quite fit a fully-fledged civ because it is not super unique or has an independent history (but if we want to divide Han Chinese into different groups, they are unquestionably the most unique, followed by Hokkien and Hakka).
——And, yes, that's this thread's charm.

*If anyone is interested in this topic, I suggest some readings of David Faure's works, esp. Emperor and Ancestor.

 

[Zaarin]

For infrastructure/civ ability, Guangdong is known for its Ancestral Hall (宗祠), as during Ming and Qing Dynasties a lot of social organizations - including "modern" organizations such as corporations, local council, and even women's associations - in the province was operated in the form of a clan/linage*.

The Cantonese Ancestral Hall can be a unique improvement, 1 per city, unlocked by Guilds, can double the output of other improvements (Farms, Mines, Lumber Mills, etc) adjacent to it, for the Cantonese AH was a unique social organization that can mobilize people and their output.
(Or can increase the yield of the adjacent districts by 10% or 20%.)

Moreover, this Ancestral Hall/Clan/Linage focus is very different from the rest of China (besides Hokkien and Hakka people, who also organized themselves around the clan and also live in Southern China), different parts of China organizes quite differently (you will be surprised to know that there are deeply Christian regions in Northern China). So I would say Cantonese representation doesn't fit an alternative option for China because it is so different and unique, while it also doesn't quite fit a fully-fledged civ because it is not super unique or has an independent history (but if we want to divide Han Chinese into different groups, they are unquestionably the most unique, so as Hokkien and Hakka).
——And, yes, that's this thread's charm.

I didn't know I needed a Cantonese civ, but now I do.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I didn't know I needed a Cantonese civ, but now I do.

I think Sukritact probably can have you covered*; if I remember correctly he knows both Chinese and Cantonese.
*Although a modded Cantonese civ will definitely generate a lot of controversy from the Chinese players on the Steam Workshop. I personally don't mind a Cantonese civ but a lot of others do mind - there is a lot of semi-political debate about whether Cantonese is a "language" (therefore rendering Cantonese people as "different" from Han Chinese) or not.

Come to think of it, a Cantonese civ is somehow like having an Acadian/Cajun civ: Both live in the South of a large country, speak a language different from the majority, have unique social norms/festivals/folk beliefs, and are known for their delicious cuisines.

 

[almughavar]

A Cantonese civilization or any other civilization based on a subdivision of China will be violently condemned and boycotted by Chinese as well as Chinese government.

 

[8housesofelixir]

A Cantonese civilization or any other civilization based on a subdivision of China will be violently condemned and boycotted by Chinese as well as Chinese government.

As a Chinese I certainly aware that. And that's why we have a thread like this in the first place, isn't it?

 

[notNamed]

There is a lot of semi-political debate about whether Cantonese is a "language" (therefore rendering Cantonese people as "different" from Han Chinese) or not.

Spoiler :

Language as any sort of closer defined concept is a completely political thing in on itself. Zaarin here could talk for ages about it but a quick TL;DR is that the most granular division you can do of the way people speak while staying objective and apolitical are dialect continua. These are areas of land where picking any two neighbors, they will be able to understand each other, even if it doesn't work transitively. "Chinese language" is an example of one such large dialect continuum, of which Cantonese, Beijing Mandarin or Shanghainese are prestige dialects of. And the dialectal boundaries come down to poltical history of the place. If you returned to the Tang dynasty and started applying western dialect markings there, you'd start with a "language" centered around Chang'An and once you got far enough that you couldn't be understood anymore, you'd look for the closest large city or geographic area to define the next one and so on.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Spoiler :

Language as any sort of closer defined concept is a completely political thing in on itself. Zaarin here could talk for ages about it but a quick TL;DR is that the most granular division you can do of the way people speak while staying objective and apolitical are dialect continua. These are areas of land where picking any two neighbors, they will be able to understand each other, even if it doesn't work transitively. "Chinese language" is an example of one such large dialect continuum, of which Cantonese, Beijing Mandarin or Shanghainese are prestige dialects of. And the dialectal boundaries come down to poltical history of the place. If you returned to the Tang dynasty and started applying western dialect markings there, you'd start with a "language" centered around Chang'An and once you got far enough that you couldn't be understood anymore, you'd look for the closest large city or geographic area to define the next one and so on.

the issue is you’re completely right, but we do end up making arbitrary decisions on what a language actually is, and generally that’s when languages become only partially mutually intelligible or not mutually intelligible at all.

The issue is that for examples like Chinese or Arabic, where pop culture classifies them as one religion when in reality a number of regional ‘dialects’ aren’t mutually intelligible with each other, they’re actually independent languages of each other at that point. Indeed, it’s arbitrary, and usually politics plays a bigger role than linguistics in determining fbe difference (see hindi/urdu, or czech/slovak), but you can make general determinations, and to say Cantonese and Mandarin are languages and not dialects of Chinese is ultimately more grounded in reality than them being dislects

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

"A Language is a Dialect with an army and a navy" - Max Weinreich (attributed)