[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[SammyKhalifa]

I'm fine with a unique infrastructure found in different parts of the world as long as it originates in the place of origin, and forms it's own cultural identity, which this seems to do.

That's why I'm even okay with the Golf Course for Scotland, though there could have been other options, and the Ice Hockey Rink for Canada.

But everything under the sun came from somewhere else, or was just a slight variation of.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But everything under the sun came from somewhere else, or was just a slight variation of.

Even the ziggurats of Sumer?

I mean point taken. Even though Golf and Ice Hockey might have had origins in other places, the modern day forms of those sports originated in Scotland and Canada respectively.

 

[Jeppetto]

I am starting to resent how early war is starting to become mandatory to have a good, fun game of civ. Every OP civ the devs add increases the amount of rivals you should cripple asap. *Sigh*.Oh well, I can still have permanent peace and suffocating colonization pipe dreams *after* the token ancient era neighbourly conquest, I guess.

From gameplay perspective it's pretty lame, but from themtic perspective, I do like a little how the Ancient Era, thanks to this, half-resembles the civilizations being primitive sort-of-tribes raiding each other. Also there's quite a lot of dead cultures that existed long before, I presume the devs intended it that not every civ will see mid-game or late-game and that they are to be historical civilization consumed by its neighbours and early game makes good sense for that.

Watch as the next pack introduces complaints about the OP slovenian hay drier - each of which gives all cavalry +5 combat strength for every wheat resource in your empire.

Second time this thread I read it as hair drier. Now we're talking OP unit.

 

[Leucarum]

Second time this thread I read it as hair drier. Now we're talking OP unit.

I guess the hair dryer would probably use coal or oil - maybe even uranium - so you could trigger global warming with nothing but hair dryers.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I legit thought of the possibility of a Slovene civ paging through this thread and cackled. Well done brightening my day, Civfanatics. Well done.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Let's see, Slovene Hair Dryers probably not, but:

The area later occupied by the Slovene Tribes was the Roman provinces of Noricum and Pannonia, and Norcum was famous for the quality of the swords forged there - the iron ore mined in the privunce had trace elements of Magnesium in it, which made for exceptionally strong blades that kept an edge better (Magnesium is one of the alloy metals used to make 20th century steel armor plate).

The earliest ethnically modern (Slavic as opposed to ancient Ilyrian or Thracian) Slovene Civ would be Samo's Empire of Slovene Tribes, about 590 to 631 CE, named after the founding chief.
After that there's Carantania, 745 - 818 CE before it became completely subordinated to the Holy Roman Empire.

But after that, except for the brief French-inspired Ilyrian Provinces of 1805 - 1813, there really isn't an independent Slovene State until 1918 and the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.

Pretty thin pickings, but not as bad as say, Olmecs, Toltecs or Mnoans . . .

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Pretty thin pickings, but not as bad as say, Olmecs, Toltecs or Mnoans . . .

Hmmm... yeah, you're right. I'd rather the Purepecha before the Olmecs and Toltecs, and the Hittites before the Mnoans. Never even heard of these "Mnoans" you speak of. /s

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Hmmm... yeah, you're right. I'd rather the Purepecha before the Olmecs and Toltecs, and the Hittites before the Mnoans. Never even heard of these "Mnoans" you speak of. /s

Well in fact, there's no indication that anybody in the Bronze Age ever heard of 'Minoans" or "Mnoans" either. The word "Minoan" was first used to refer to the civilization by a German writer in 1831 CE and then adopted by Sir Arthur Evans to refer to the 'palace' he excavated at Knossos. No sign of the word as been found in any contemporary inscription or writing from other states like Egypt, Hattusa, etc.

But then, of course, we don't really know what the Olmecs called themselves either . . .

 

[Jeppetto]

But then, of course, we don't really know what the Olmecs called themselves either . . .

Well maybe the usual... Tim, Jack, Billy...

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Well maybe the usual... Tim, Jack, Billy...

"Hey, Ron."
"Hey, Billy."

 

[notNamed]

The earliest ethnically modern (Slavic as opposed to ancient Ilyrian or Thracian) Slovene Civ would be Samo's Empire of Slovene Tribes, about 590 to 631 CE, named after the founding chief.
After that there's Carantania, 745 - 818 CE before it became completely subordinated to the Holy Roman Empire.

Besides all the issues there exist with Samo's Empire and the lack of anything other than a single book by a single guy (and it's not like all the states supposedly involved didn't try to find something, anything, to prove anything in that chronicle true), it is really more of a Czechoslovak entity, if that. So Carantania is ultimately the main candidate for an autonomous and historical Slovenian Civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well in fact, there's no indication that anybody in the Bronze Age ever heard of 'Minoans" or "Mnoans" either. The word "Minoan" was first used to refer to the civilization by a German writer in 1831 CE and then adopted by Sir Arthur Evans to refer to the 'palace' he excavated at Knossos. No sign of the word as been found in any contemporary inscription or writing from other states like Egypt, Hattusa, etc.

I'd like to see the Minoans get some sort of representation in Civ. The best chance we get is Knossos coming off the Greek city list and becoming it's own city-state.
I'll have to wait for that mythology spinoff game for them to become playable.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Besides all the issues there exist with Samo's Empire and the lack of anything other than a single book by a single guy (and it's not like all the states supposedly involved didn't try to find something, anything, to prove anything in that chronicle true), it is really more of a Czechoslovak entity, if that. So Carantania is ultimately the main candidate for an autonomous and historical Slovenian Civ.

I've been flogging away at a Master List of every potential Civ and City State for reference, and it is really difficult to relate many of the ancient groups to the modern or even semi-modern states. Many modern states attempt to date their origins and relations back to ancient groups for which there is absolutely no evidence, historical, genetic or linguistic, and in many cases the locations where a given group settled have changed dramatically over the centuries so that a geographical relationship doesn't help either. Slovenia is a good case in point: there is no discernable relationship between anything modern Slovene and any of the Pre-Slavic groups that inhabited any area near modern Slovenia. And Slovenia itself has had borders about as firm as jello in a Tsunami. And for a great deal of the time, there was nothing resembling an independent and identifiably Slovene state, only geographical abstractions that lumped Slovenes in with other groups under completely non-Slovene leadership.

And, unfortunately, Slovenes are by no means alone in all those problems nor is the Balkan Peninsula alone as a geographical region with such problems.

I'd like to see the Minoans get some sort of representation in Civ. The best chance we get is Knossos coming off the Greek city list and becoming it's own city-state.
I'll have to wait for that mythology spinoff game for them to become playable.

Archeologically there is a good basis for regarding the 'Minoan' Civilization as a collection of related City States. Certainly almost every Minoan site seems to be centered around a 'Palace Complex' - although we are on shakier ground to assume that means the Complex was also a Political Power Center. The only thing certain is that they all had facilities fo storing and apparently distributing Food and other materials (the infamous Labyrinth was actually a massive set of small storerooms in the basement of the complex at Knossos, which is also found in other 'Minoan' Palaces' that have been excavated) and religious worship centers.

I would love to see an in-game mechanism that allowed City States to form Alliances of various kinds - political, military, trade/economic, etc. That type of polity might actually represent the actual 'Minoan' Civ pretty well, and if designed right (and to keep City States a separate Thing from Civs in the game) would get around not having a named single Leader for the group.

 

[Ferocitus]

I would love to see an in-game mechanism that allowed City States to form Alliances of various kinds - political, military, trade/economic, etc. That type of polity might actually represent the actual 'Minoan' Civ pretty well, and if designed right (and to keep City States a separate Thing from Civs in the game) would get around not having a named single Leader for the group.

I can't see why you couldn't have twinning between CS and also between CS and civs.
Maybe there could be a system of "sister cities", like Ankara and Kazan today.
And the relationship could be broken, like Prague and St. Petersburg in 2014.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I can't see why you couldn't have twinning between CS and also between CS and civs.
Maybe there could be a system of "sister cities", like Ankara and Kazan today.
And the relationship could be broken, like Prague and St. Petersburg in 2014.

I thought about that, but the way the game randomly scatters City States around the map, there would be a vanishingly small chance of any IRL 'sister cities' being anywhere near each other. I think a better mechanic would be to have similar or maybe complimentary City States in some kind of proximity to each other have a chance of forming an alliance. The distance requirements could change as communications technology changes in the game.

For examples, two or more Military City States might form a Military Alliance, their combined military forces working together.
Two or more Commercial City States would be likely to form a Trade/Commercial Alliance, Religious City States might form a Holy League, etc. The actual names of the City States are less material than the type and location, which may also be easier to program in the game.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I thought about that, but the way the game randomly scatters City States around the map, there would be a vanishingly small chance of any IRL 'sister cities' being anywhere near each other. I think a better mechanic would be to have similar or maybe complimentary City States in some kind of proximity to each other have a chance of forming an alliance. The distance requirements could change as communications technology changes in the game.

For examples, two or more Military City States might form a Military Alliance, their combined military forces working together.
Two or more Commercial City States would be likely to form a Trade/Commercial Alliance, Religious City States might form a Holy League, etc. The actual names of the City States are less material than the type and location, which may also be easier to program in the game.

Basically how Trade Leagues work in EU4, but in a way that works with Civ 6 mechanics?

 

[Ferocitus]

I thought about that, but the way the game randomly scatters City States around the map, there would be a vanishingly small chance of any IRL 'sister cities' being anywhere near each other.

I didn't mean irl cities, I was just giving actual examples.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I didn't mean irl cities, I was just giving actual examples.

My bad.
A really well-programmed "League" mechanic could actually have the option of having 'sister city' City States that are the same type and so reinforce each other in Trade/Commerce, Religion, Military, or Leagues in which the CS are different types and complement each other, possibly even reaching the strength of a regular Civ in areas. (IRL certainly Venice and Genoa and their 'colonies' were more powerful than many 'states' of their time both Militarily and commercially, and the Hanseatic [Commercial City State collection?] League dominated trade and commerce all over northern Europe far more than any state of the time from England to Russia).

Another possibility would be to extend this idea to the Barbarians: Barbarian Camps that stay in existence for X Turns within Z tiles of each other could form 'Nations' of tribes - with the ability to overrun and take Cities of City States or Civs. Further, a Civ's cities might not be razed, but would become new City States, possibly their Type based on what they were producing the most of before being conquered: Religion, Commerce, Military, etc.
For the City State effects for these 'new' City States, there could be a collection of effects to be randomly assigned - take a look at Gedemo's collection of Modded City States for examples of the variations on 'standard' City State effects that could be made available.

 

[Abaxial]

The problem really is that the game demands that every civ MUST have a unique unit and MUST have a unique building, and many don't. Hence barrels get scraped, and the Austrian coffee house and the Scottish golf course are examples. In some cases, there IS an obvious choice - for Vikings, of course the longship is a characteristic unit, if we overlook that the Vikiings were as much Swedish and Danish as Norwegian. Oddly, sometimes the most characteristic unit get overlooked. The Scottish ace card was the schiltron, and the English war-winning weapon was the Welsh longbowman. But what is the typical English building? English brick houses look different from Scottish stone houses, but I would be hard put to name something as distinctively English as the stave church. Maybe the pub. Royal Navy dockyard? How is that different from anyone else's dockyard? You might as well call it the English dockyard and be done with it.

Of course you can take the attitude that reality doesn't matter, it's just a game device. Then the Vietnamese UU can be the thingy and the UB is the what-do-you-call it. The Kittybum and the Palgum are not far off.

 

[SMcM]

I mean if Slovenia ends up in the game why not?

I didn't see the context of this, but I guarantee Slovenia will never be in a Civilization game! It's only 20 years old as an independent country and has no historical predecessor states really, just being controlled by foreign states.