[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[blackcatatonic]

The problem really is that the game demands that every civ MUST have a unique unit and MUST have a unique building, and many don't. Hence barrels get scraped, and the Austrian coffee house and the Scottish golf course are examples.

Still annoyed they didn't go with a broch instead of the stupid golf course.

 

[Abaxial]

Still annoyed they didn't go with a broch instead of the stupid golf course.

Agreed, but the broch is Pictish, not Scots.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The problem really is that the game demands that every civ MUST have a unique unit and MUST have a unique building, and many don't.

The biggest problem is every civ MUST have a voiced leader but a lot of the times it can be hard to find a good leader choice let alone voicing them.

But what is the typical English building? English brick houses look different from Scottish stone houses, but I would be hard put to name something as distinctively English as the stave church. Maybe the pub. Royal Navy dockyard? How is that different from anyone else's dockyard? You might as well call it the English dockyard and be done with it.

The majority of UB/UI/UDs are not buildings with unique architectural styles but institutions with unique significances in a civ's society which took the form of a "building".

e.g.: Château, Golf Course, Hacienda, Ice Hockey Rink, Mekewap, Mission, Open-Air Museum, Outback Station, Pā, Pairidaeza, Polder, Qhapaq Ñan, Rock-Hewn Church, Roman Fort, Terrace Farm, Stepwell, Ziggurat, Basilikoi Paides, Marae, Ordu, Tlachtli, Sukiennice, Prasat, Stave Church, Madrasa, Grand Bazaar, Electronics Factory, Thermal Bath, Film Studio, Observatory, Seowon, Acropolis, Lavra, Ikanda, Suguba, Royal Navy Dockyard, Hansa, Oppidum, Street Carnival, Hippodrome, Bath, and Mbanza.
——These are all actually institutions, not buildings or improvements or districts as "buildings."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The problem really is that the game demands that every civ MUST have a unique unit and MUST have a unique building, and many don't. Hence barrels get scraped, and the Austrian coffee house and the Scottish golf course are examples. In some cases, there IS an obvious choice - for Vikings, of course the longship is a characteristic unit, if we overlook that the Vikiings were as much Swedish and Danish as Norwegian. Oddly, sometimes the most characteristic unit get overlooked. The Scottish ace card was the schiltron, and the English war-winning weapon was the Welsh longbowman. But what is the typical English building? English brick houses look different from Scottish stone houses, but I would be hard put to name something as distinctively English as the stave church. Maybe the pub. Royal Navy dockyard? How is that different from anyone else's dockyard? You might as well call it the English dockyard and be done with it.

Well first of all the Stave church isn't English but Norwegian and I would argue that the Highlander is just as obvious, maybe even the more obvious choice for Scotland.

As for the Royal Navy Dockyard, that was an actual term used to denote state owned facilities where the Royal Navy of England/UK were kept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_Dockyard

I didn't see the context of this, but I guarantee Slovenia will never be in a Civilization game! It's only 20 years old as an independent country and has no historical predecessor states really, just being controlled by foreign states.

I don't believe it will and I've never seen anyone actually advocate for it. There's plenty of other civilizations I'd rather see before them, even in Europe.

The discussion was that there are some cultures that really don't have a unique infrastructure which would make it harder for them to be considered for the game. The Slovene hay drier was brought up as an example and I was agreeing that if they did get in the game there's no reason why it couldn't be their unique infrastructure.

 

[Zegangani]

A really well-programmed "League" mechanic could actually have the option of having 'sister city' City States that are the same type and so reinforce each other in Trade/Commerce, Religion, Military, or Leagues in which the CS are different types and complement each other, possibly even reaching the strength of a regular Civ in areas. (IRL certainly Venice and Genoa and their 'colonies' were more powerful than many 'states' of their time both Militarily and commercially, and the Hanseatic [Commercial City State collection?] League dominated trade and commerce all over northern Europe far more than any state of the time from England to Russia).

Another possibility would be to extend this idea to the Barbarians: Barbarian Camps that stay in existence for X Turns within Z tiles of each other could form 'Nations' of tribes - with the ability to overrun and take Cities of City States or Civs. Further, a Civ's cities might not be razed, but would become new City States, possibly their Type based on what they were producing the most of before being conquered: Religion, Commerce, Military, etc.
For the City State effects for these 'new' City States, there could be a collection of effects to be randomly assigned - take a look at Gedemo's collection of Modded City States for examples of the variations on 'standard' City State effects that could be made available.

Making CSs have (minor Civ) Character traits and Opinions/Judgements on other Civs/CSs would make them more diplomatic. This would open the Opportunity to introduce CSs, like the Minoans, that wouldn't feel like every other CS, but Unique.

As I stated in another Thread, I would also love it if they decide to change the behavior of the AI on going to war with CSs. It would be better if the AI would consider other options First (the Options depend on the CS Type), like making a Demand (more successful if they surroud the CS with Units), or bribing them with Gold or other kind of Gifts. And the likelyhood of going to war with Militaristic CS is higher than going to war with other CS Types (Less with Trade/Cultural CSs).

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Making CSs have (minor Civ) Character traits and Opinions/Judgements on other Civs/CSs would make them more diplomatic. This would open the Opportunity to introduce CSs, like the Minuans, that wouldn't feel like every other CS, but Unique.

Damn. First the Mnoans, then the Minoans, and now the Minuans. What's next the Moanas?

 

[Zegangani]

Damn. First the Mnoans, then the Minoans, and now the Minuans. What's next the Moanas?

Minions!!!
Misspelled it

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Damn. First the Mnoans, then the Minoans, and now the Minuans. What's next the Moanas?

We already have them. Of course it's spelled Maori.

 

[Zegangani]

Dammit, now I can't get the picture of Minions as Unique Units with all the crazy stuff as Abilities off my Head! BANANAA!!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The problem really is that the game demands that every civ MUST have a unique unit and MUST have a unique building, and many don't. Hence barrels get scraped, and the Austrian coffee house and the Scottish golf course are examples. In some cases, there IS an obvious choice - for Vikings, of course the longship is a characteristic unit, if we overlook that the Vikiings were as much Swedish and Danish as Norwegian. Oddly, sometimes the most characteristic unit get overlooked. The Scottish ace card was the schiltron, and the English war-winning weapon was the Welsh longbowman.

Except that the Scottish schiltron was not a unit, it was a formation. Specifically, a 'close-ranked body of troops', usually with spears, but the Old English root of the word originally meant something similar to Shield Wall with no indication of the type of weapons carried. The specific Scottish formation first mentioned in accounts of Falkirk and Bannockburn was a circular defensive formation of men with half-pikes: 12-foot long spears held in both hands, not quite as effective against cavalry as the full sized 18 - 20 foot long pike, but much handier if you are trying to move the formation over rough ground, like anywhere in Scotland not on a golf course! When used offensively, the schiltron was a solid rectangle and, to quote an English account of Bannockburn:
"They advanced like a thick-set hedge and such a phalanx could not easily be broken".

As for the "English - Welsh" longbowman, there was a distinct difference between the two, but it wasn't the bow, it was the organization and training as a unit. The Welsh had neither: the southern Welsh who favored the longbow fought as tribes with little or no organization at all. The English system required yeomen to train and practice weekly with the longbow under the supervision of the local sheriff, who also went to war with them as the leader of the unit. As a result, English longbow fire could be concentrated and shifted by command during the battle, and the concentration was Lethal.

Longbows have been used since the Classical Era - Xenophon describes them being used by the Carduchi of the Zagros Mountains (they could drive an arrow through a man's shield and corselet/body armor) and the Indian infantry fighting Alexander used 'man tall' bows. It was the organization of the bowmen into a cohesive unit under command that made the English version different and more effective than the other 'long' bows.

But what is the typical English building? English brick houses look different from Scottish stone houses, but I would be hard put to name something as distinctively English as the stave church. Maybe the pub. Royal Navy dockyard? How is that different from anyone else's dockyard? You might as well call it the English dockyard and be done with it.

Call it what you will, but the Royal (Navy) Dockyard was substantially different from other dockyards. The British concentrated the manufacture of all the elements required or a wooden warship at the dockyard, so that they had rope works and timber forming and fitting yards to virtually mass-produce rigging and spars and masts on site, and on-site foundries and forges for the metal parts required as well. By the middle of the 18th century the Royal Navy could build a frigate or ship-of-the-line almost twice as fast as any other navy in Europe, thanks to the 'industrial' organization of the Royal Dockyards.
And in 1803 Brunel and Maudslay introduced specialized powered woodworking machinery ('machine tools') to mass-produce pulley blocks (which were needed by the hundreds for each full-rigged ship) - the first machine-made interchangeable parts in the world. The Industrial Revolution really took off from the Royal Dockyard . . .

Damn. First the Mnoans, then the Minoans, and now the Minuans. What's next the Moanas?

Ala Moana is. I believe, the name of the largest shopping mall in Honolulu, so that might be a proposed UB for a Hawaiian Civ . . .

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As for the "English - Welsh" longbowman, there was a distinct difference between the two, but it wasn't the bow, it was the organization and training as a unit. The Welsh had neither: the southern Welsh who favored the longbow fought as tribes with little or no organization at all. The English system required yeomen to train and practice weekly with the longbow under the supervision of the local sheriff, who also went to war with them as the leader of the unit. As a result, English longbow fire could be concentrated and shifted by command during the battle, and the concentration was Lethal.

I've always wondered if it would be appropriate for the Longbowmen to appear as a UU for Wales if they would ever get in the game, considering England has other options. Of course I'd put Scotland and then Ireland as a bigger priority so probably not until at least Civ 8.

Of course there's no stopping them from having them as a city-state UU and it would be appropriate considering they were paid mercenaries during the Hundred Years' War.

Ala Moana is. I believe, the name of the largest shopping mall in Honolulu, so that might be a proposed UB for a Hawaiian Civ . . .

I'm sure a different Moana was on other peoples minds.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I've always wondered if it would be appropriate for the Longbowmen to appear as a UU for Wales if they would ever get in the game, considering England has other options. Of course I'd put Scotland and then Ireland as a bigger priority so probably not until at least Civ 8.

Of course there's no stopping them from having them as a city-state UU and it would be appropriate considering they were paid mercenaries during the Hundred Years' War.


I'm sure a different Moana was on other peoples minds.

For a Welsh UU I've always thought it should be the Men's Chorus, taken from the Blackadder quote:

"Bands of great hairy men terrorizing the countryside with their close-harmony singing . . ."

Given that it was the southern Welsh that were famous for using the longbow, Cardiff would be an appropriate City State with a Longbowman UU, which would require converting the current Cardiff City State in the game.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

For a Welsh UU I've always thought it should be the Men's Chorus, taken from the Blackadder quote:

"Bands of great hairy men terrorizing the countryside with their close-harmony singing . . ."

Given that it was the southern Welsh that were famous for using the longbow, Cardiff would be an appropriate City State with a Longbowman UU, which would require converting the current Cardiff City State in the game.

It'd make that City-State actually worth being Suzerain of.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Agreed, but the broch is Pictish, not Scots.

But brochs are pretty much only found in what we now call Scotland. The Picts are part of Scotland's history, and aren't likely to get their own Civ any time soon.

 

[Zaarin]

But brochs are pretty much only found in what we now call Scotland. The Picts are part of Scotland's history, and aren't likely to get their own Civ any time soon.

Sure, but it's kind of like giving England a Roman Bath UI or the USA a Teepee UI. The Scots were still in Ireland when the brochs were built. I'd suggest a Barmkin would be something similar that would be more Scottish.

 

[blackcatatonic]

It's still better than a golf course.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Sure, but it's kind of like giving England a Roman Bath UI or the USA a Teepee UI. The Scots were still in Ireland when the brochs were built. I'd suggest a Barmkin would be something similar that would be more Scottish.

Save the Broch for the Picts, but also the Barmkin was basically a wall around another structure to make it into a Scots version of a Castle, and in fact the Scots official order to build them dates from 1535 CE (so, "Renaissance" Era) and specifically requires people of a certain income to build them, so it's exactly equivalent (if a little late) to the Medieval Castle.
A better and peculiarly Scots structure, IMHO, would be the Pele or Peel Tower, which was a fortified building used to guard the Scots border with England (and also, to be completely accurate, built on the English side of the border to guard against Scots' raiders). What would make it unique as a Fort structure is that many were later converted into other purposes ranging from Bed and Breakfasts to vicarge residences to parts of larger Manor Houses, so they could 'advance' to have a Tourism/Cultural effect after becoming obsolete as fortifications.

And it's still better than a golf course.

 

[Jeppetto]

Damn. First the Mnoans, then the Minoans, and now the Minuans. What's next the Moanas?

Minutemen confirmed

 

[Zaarin]

Save the Broch for the Picts, but also the Barmkin was basically a wall around another structure to make it into a Scots version of a Castle, and in fact the Scots official order to build them dates from 1535 CE (so, "Renaissance" Era) and specifically requires people of a certain income to build them, so it's exactly equivalent (if a little late) to the Medieval Castle...And it's still better than a golf course.

Yeah, that's kind of my point. There's not really anything special about a barmkin--it's a fortified manor, essentially, which is the very picture of Medieval Europe--but it's still better than a golf course. And it's also better than a broch, which wasn't built by the Scots.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I certainly understand why they went for the Golf Course though. It's something undeniably Scottish, memeworthy and clichématronic as its inclusion was. I wouldn't have minded a fortified castle however, as long as it would invoke ~Scotland~ in a similar fashion