[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Oh I am not sad we got Tamar after all. I've always had a soft spot for her useless (secretly not useless at all) crusty self. (helped by the fact that I was the first one here to figure out the clue during the R&F season - a life achievement of mine! My parents should be proud!). But at the time people were convincing themselves she was part of the basegame, which was a stretch, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Likewise, I don't oppose the inclusion of PNW tribes - In fact, I'd endorse it. A lot. I merely refuse to get my hopes up via rampant internet spec.
 
Likewise, I don't oppose the inclusion of PNW tribes - In fact, I'd endorse it. A lot. I merely refuse to get my hopes up via rampant internet spec.
Oh, I agree. I'm 99% certain the last civ is Portugal, for better or for worse.
 
Alright, I think I've had enough of orcas for one day. Everyone's too focused on orcas. Orcas this orcas that. We all need to relax, inhale, exhale, and take our minds off orcas. So I'm going to watch a show on Netflix instead. Hey look, this one about the Ottomans looks fu...

FRyHFxH.png


Well that's one hell of an algorithm.

Guess I'm re-watching people getting eaten by distressed orcas instead. Thanks Netflix.
 
At this point, it would seem pretty likely we're getting a returning civ rather than a new one, so if you consider that we are, that basically narrows down the options to one of four civs realistically: Portugal, the Iroquois, Morocco, and the Hittites. Of these four, the Iroquois and Morocco would be the most geographically unique within NFP itself - We have the Gauls super close to Portugal and Babylon super close to the Hittites, but while we have the Maya and Ethiopia, they respectively represent Mesoamerica and East Africa, whereas we have no true representation of North America or North Africa in this pass. We usually see one ME/ME-adjacent and one African civ per DLC group (SP had Persia and Nubia, R&K had Georgia and the Zulu, GS had the Ottomans and Mali, and NFP has Byzantium+Babylon and Ethiopia), on top of the base game having 2 each (Arabia/Sumeria and Egypt/Kongo). The fact that we've already seen the BB combo in NFP specifically rules out Hittites immediately as that would be 3 ME/ME-adjacent civs, but we've never seen African get more than 1 new civ per grouping, so with the addition of Ethiopia, Morocco can probably be reasonably ruled out as well.

The basegame came with 8 European civs (England/France/Germany/Spain/Norway/Russia/Rome/Greece). This was followed up with Poland/Macedonia in the SP, the Netherlands/Scotland in R&K, and Hungary/Sweden/Eleanor alt in GS, for an average of 2 additional Euro civs every group. By this metric, we've already seen both our Euro civs with the addition of Byzantium and the Gauls (in the same pack, no less), which in theory should rule Portugal out as well since we've never gone above 2 additional Euro civs at a time past the base game. In contrast, we've seen exactly 2 Mesoamerican civs, both introduced in the DLC SPs (the Aztecs and the Maya). The SP is the only group of DLC to not include a new civ from North American proper, while we've gotten exactly 1 civ from NA in every other grouping, including the basegame (America in base, the Cree in R&K, and Canada in RF), and if you combine the two regions together we've gotten exactly 1 in every DLC so far. Looking aside from the Mesoamerican civs, we have a pattern of Country-Tribe-Country in the current 3 we have, as well as Vet-New-New, so it would stand to reason that the next NA civ to be included would be a tribe and also a returning vet to balance things out, which basically means the Iroquois, the Sioux, or the Shoshone. We are also due for another female leader, seeing as the SP, R&K and GF all had 3.

So due to the observable patterns, combined with overall requests amongst the fanbase both via the civ and the potential leader choice, the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee led by Jigonhsasee makes the most sense as a requested civ amongst the fanbase (that is from North America, a tribe, and a vet civ, which fits all established patterns with the other ones we've gotten so far), with a popular female leader choice (just like Tamar and Lady Six Sky) that is very historically relevant to the Iroquois and not just a diversity choice for the sake of diversity (Jigonhsasee being one of the three founders of the Iroquois Confederacy and on equal footing with fellow co-founder Hiawatha, who was the their designated leader in Civ III and Civ V)

However, all the above relies on us getting a returnee civ and not a new one. But going again off of patterns, we got 3 new civs in the basegame (Norway, Scythia, Kongo), the SP had a 5-3 split in favor of returnees, and both xpacs had a 4-4 split in terms of returning civs vs. new ones. We are currently sitting at 4 returnee civs (Maya, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Babylon) and 3 new civs (Gran Colombia, the Gauls, and Vietnam). If we're following the basegame + SP trend, then we're getting a vet civ and sending with a 5-3 split. If we're following the xpacs, then we're getting a new civ. So in the case that we're getting a new civ, they would still follow all the established patterns otherwise, so they'd need to be a North American tribe with a female leader. The immediate first option that comes to mind is the Cherokee led like Nanyehi, which are one of the most popular requests for a new tribe civ from NA, as well as a decently-popular leader request that is also not a diversity pick for the sake of diversity. Beyond the Cherokee, my knowledge of female leader choices in other popular new civ requests such as the Navajo or a PNW tribe is not extensive and I can't come up with any good ideas to suggest for them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist! But I also personally see the Cherokee as the most likely (Navajo second, due to the unique espionage-based playstyle that they can bring due to the Codetalkers) due to their popularity as a request amongst the fanbase when bringing up new NA civs.
 
I think another Northamerican Civ with a good female leader could be the Tongva led by Toypurina; the Tongva is a very interesting culture, some of them talk about how interesting is that their life style and boat making practices are more similar to pacific islander rather than other North American tribes; Toypurina herself is an interesting person, a medicine woman who lead rebellions against the Spanish conversion of her people, gameplay wise they could maybe touch into Medic units with her, maybe an Unique early medic unit, the ability to buy them with faith and they could also similar to a great general boosting the combat strengh of adjacent units; additionally the Tongva geographically speaking cover the California region, which i think has never been explore in a civ game
 
I suspect that there will be some form of DLC beyond NFP, if only because of certain things that are currently missing from the game. The units have rather obvious gaps (from Musketman to Infantry, Cold War-era bombers filling in for "Stealth" technology, etc.), and then, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there's the military-centric group of longtime, iconic Civ Leaders that so far have been left out of Civ VI but which would make for A) great Alternate Leaders and B) a military-themed DLC Pack/Season Pass. Napoleon, Oda Nobunaga, Augustus Caesar, Boudicca, Bismarck, Attila, Elizabeth, Enrico Dandolo, Harold Bluetooth, and Washington/Lincoln, among others.

Do I expect all of these to be added should such DLC be announced? Of course not; there would obviously be a lot of redundancy created by some of them, for one thing. But others (especially Napoleon) could absolutely offer different personalities and gameplay approaches than the currently available Leaders. But again, given what (and who) is missing, if any DLC is coming after NFP, it makes sense that it would have some sort of militaristic theme.
 
At this point, it would seem pretty likely we're getting a returning civ rather than a new one, so if you consider that we are, that basically narrows down the options to one of four civs realistically: Portugal, the Iroquois, Morocco, and the Hittites. Of these four, the Iroquois and Morocco would be the most geographically unique within NFP itself - We have the Gauls super close to Portugal and Babylon super close to the Hittites, but while we have the Maya and Ethiopia, they respectively represent Mesoamerica and East Africa, whereas we have no true representation of North America or North Africa in this pass. We usually see one ME/ME-adjacent and one African civ per DLC group (SP had Persia and Nubia, R&K had Georgia and the Zulu, GS had the Ottomans and Mali, and NFP has Byzantium+Babylon and Ethiopia), on top of the base game having 2 each (Arabia/Sumeria and Egypt/Kongo). The fact that we've already seen the BB combo in NFP specifically rules out Hittites immediately as that would be 3 ME/ME-adjacent civs, but we've never seen African get more than 1 new civ per grouping, so with the addition of Ethiopia, Morocco can probably be reasonably ruled out as well.

The basegame came with 8 European civs (England/France/Germany/Spain/Norway/Russia/Rome/Greece). This was followed up with Poland/Macedonia in the SP, the Netherlands/Scotland in R&K, and Hungary/Sweden/Eleanor alt in GS, for an average of 2 additional Euro civs every group. By this metric, we've already seen both our Euro civs with the addition of Byzantium and the Gauls (in the same pack, no less), which in theory should rule Portugal out as well since we've never gone above 2 additional Euro civs at a time past the base game. In contrast, we've seen exactly 2 Mesoamerican civs, both introduced in the DLC SPs (the Aztecs and the Maya). The SP is the only group of DLC to not include a new civ from North American proper, while we've gotten exactly 1 civ from NA in every other grouping, including the basegame (America in base, the Cree in R&K, and Canada in RF), and if you combine the two regions together we've gotten exactly 1 in every DLC so far. Looking aside from the Mesoamerican civs, we have a pattern of Country-Tribe-Country in the current 3 we have, as well as Vet-New-New, so it would stand to reason that the next NA civ to be included would be a tribe and also a returning vet to balance things out, which basically means the Iroquois, the Sioux, or the Shoshone. We are also due for another female leader, seeing as the SP, R&K and GF all had 3.

So due to the observable patterns, combined with overall requests amongst the fanbase both via the civ and the potential leader choice, the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee led by Jigonhsasee makes the most sense as a requested civ amongst the fanbase (that is from North America, a tribe, and a vet civ, which fits all established patterns with the other ones we've gotten so far), with a popular female leader choice (just like Tamar and Lady Six Sky) that is very historically relevant to the Iroquois and not just a diversity choice for the sake of diversity (Jigonhsasee being one of the three founders of the Iroquois Confederacy and on equal footing with fellow co-founder Hiawatha, who was the their designated leader in Civ III and Civ V)

However, all the above relies on us getting a returnee civ and not a new one. But going again off of patterns, we got 3 new civs in the basegame (Norway, Scythia, Kongo), the SP had a 5-3 split in favor of returnees, and both xpacs had a 4-4 split in terms of returning civs vs. new ones. We are currently sitting at 4 returnee civs (Maya, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Babylon) and 3 new civs (Gran Colombia, the Gauls, and Vietnam). If we're following the basegame + SP trend, then we're getting a vet civ and sending with a 5-3 split. If we're following the xpacs, then we're getting a new civ. So in the case that we're getting a new civ, they would still follow all the established patterns otherwise, so they'd need to be a North American tribe with a female leader. The immediate first option that comes to mind is the Cherokee led like Nanyehi, which are one of the most popular requests for a new tribe civ from NA, as well as a decently-popular leader request that is also not a diversity pick for the sake of diversity. Beyond the Cherokee, my knowledge of female leader choices in other popular new civ requests such as the Navajo or a PNW tribe is not extensive and I can't come up with any good ideas to suggest for them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist! But I also personally see the Cherokee as the most likely (Navajo second, due to the unique espionage-based playstyle that they can bring due to the Codetalkers) due to their popularity as a request amongst the fanbase when bringing up new NA civs.

You forgot about Assyria. And Austria. (and Denmark).

Not that I think any of those are particularly likely. I think Portugal is most likely, and secondarily something from North America, either new or returning.

You can also look at the expacks as introducing three European leaders (Robert, Wilhelmina, Tamar; Kristina, Matthias, Eleanor), in which case a third European leader is the most likely/profitable choice for the final NFP leader.

I don't disagree with your Iroquois/Cherokee logic, however. Both seem exceptionally strong candidates if the developers go in any direction other than Portugal. I do think that, after Civ 5 introduced the Shoshone, the franchise serves as a huge opportunity to expose its primary market (the United States) to the full range of our cultural history. I think it's an opportunity that should not be missed for VI.
 
I feel Portugal is more likely but I'm hoping for the Haudenosaunee myself, though I do think the last civ will be a returning one. Honestly at this point I'm more interested in if the civ has interesting gameplay features more than anything so even if I don't care for Portugal personally I'd be happy if they brought interesting ideas to the table.
 
I think another Northamerican Civ with a good female leader could be the Tongva led by Toypurina; the Tongva is a very interesting culture, some of them talk about how interesting is that their life style and boat making practices are more similar to pacific islander rather than other North American tribes; Toypurina herself is an interesting person, a medicine woman who lead rebellions against the Spanish conversion of her people, gameplay wise they could maybe touch into Medic units with her, maybe an Unique early medic unit, the ability to buy them with faith and they could also similar to a great general boosting the combat strengh of adjacent units; additionally the Tongva geographically speaking cover the California region, which i think has never been explore in a civ game
I wouldn't be thrilled with choosing a California tribe. It was one of the most primitive regions of North America after the Arctic, and the PNW is right next door with considerably more cultural and technological sophistication. I think if we get another North American civ, the odds are strongly in favor of the Haudenosaunee thanks to their familiarity and long-standing experience with media attention. However, I think the final civ is almost certainly Portugal.
 
If so, those whales are far from home... and I'm pretty sure she said sharks, not whales.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Triệu
Not meaning to bring this debate up again but was this always there?
The quote on Wikipedia says orcas.
Maybe all of this was just referencing Lady Trieu. :crazyeye:

I suspect that there will be some form of DLC beyond NFP, if only because of certain things that are currently missing from the game. The units have rather obvious gaps (from Musketman to Infantry, Cold War-era bombers filling in for "Stealth" technology, etc.), and then, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there's the military-centric group of longtime, iconic Civ Leaders that so far have been left out of Civ VI but which would make for A) great Alternate Leaders and B) a military-themed DLC Pack/Season Pass. Napoleon, Oda Nobunaga, Augustus Caesar, Boudicca, Bismarck, Attila, Elizabeth, Enrico Dandolo, Harold Bluetooth, and Washington/Lincoln, among others.

Do I expect all of these to be added should such DLC be announced? Of course not; there would obviously be a lot of redundancy created by some of them, for one thing. But others (especially Napoleon) could absolutely offer different personalities and gameplay approaches than the currently available Leaders. But again, given what (and who) is missing, if any DLC is coming after NFP, it makes sense that it would have some sort of militaristic theme.
I honestly don't expect most of them.
The only ones that would sort of make sense in the game currently could be Oda, Augustus or Bismarck.

England and France already has multiple leaders and their UU happens to be a Sea Dog (which represents Elizabeth) and the Imperial Guard (which represents Napoleon) in the game already. America basically has two leaders as well for those with the NFP.

The only way for Harald, Boudicca, Attila or Enrico to get in the game would be if Denmark, Britons/Iceni, Huns, or Venice (Italy) make it in which are very unlikely considering their niches are taken by Norway, Gaul, Scythia and well Venice is a recently added city-state. Though I would still love Italy. :mischief:
 
Not meaning to bring this debate up again but was this always there?
The quote on Wikipedia says orcas.
Maybe all of this was just referencing Lady Trieu. :crazyeye:

Don't know about Vietnamese, but in Chinese every "whale", including "killer whale" which technically isn't a whale, can be called using the same word, Jing 鲸, which usually just translated as "whale" in English.
 
including "killer whale" which technically isn't a whale
While the prototypical whale for English speakers is probably a baleen whale (probably specifically a humpback whale), toothed whales (sperm whales, dolphins, orcas, porpoises, beaked whales, etc.) are technically still whales.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Triệu
Not meaning to bring this debate up again but was this always there?
The quote on Wikipedia says orcas.
Maybe all of this was just referencing Lady Trieu. :crazyeye:

No, it definitely did not! I'm taking a screenshot as evidence for posterity :p:

Eu984Gq.png


Also it says at the bottom:
This page was last edited on 23 January 2021

Edit and previous text:
wfWRmB9.png


I was hoping the user IP would say Baltimore but that would be a bit too easy :p.

Edit: According to several maps on google, orcas are not natural to the South China Sea.
 
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I've mentioned it in another thread, but there's some inconsistency in the account (It's Wikipedia, go figure).
Here's the text that is quoted as the source:
atjPkQy.png

And suddenly, it's "the big whale of the Eastern sea", like a specific monster they are supposed to be referencing, maybe? :mischief:
Finding the original passage would be very helpful here. A historical text in Classical Chinese, possibly trying to be fancy with rhymes or references.
Even with none of those, (non)plurality or specific species of marine mammals is probably not going to be extractable from it.
 
I edited this above but then you posted, so it's better if I post it bellow yours because it follows from that:
---

According to google, some translations do say big whale or killer whale. Apparently there's also this curious line taken from the series Watchmen:

“I want to ride the strong winds, crush the angry waves, slay the killer whales in the eastern sea, chase away the Wu army, reclaim the land, remove the yoke of slavery. I will not bend my back to be a slave. F*** you, Ozymandias.”

There's enough coincidence here to theorize that perhaps the whole point of that bit of acting by Chang was never the mug and always the killer whale under the mug. Which would make it a hint at Lady Trieu. :p (and therefore nothing to do with coldness).

But I think that's a bit too contrived, and also, what's the point of hinting at something that would be revealed two days later anyway?
 
And suddenly, it's "the big whale of the Eastern sea", like a specific monster they are supposed to be referencing, maybe? :mischief:

"Big whale of the Eastern Sea" was a stock phrase to refer big evil monsters in traditional Chinese writings. To be precise, "whale" (鲸) was a Chinese stock concept of evil monsters especially in poems; for instance, Li Bai often talked about some heroic figure were "killing whales" in his poems. I would say there is not a lot of chance that she - or the writer of the text - was refer to specific animals.
 
Okay, I think I found the source.

The earliest mention of "Bà Triệu" and a "whale quote" together should be the Thanh Hoá kỷ thắng (清化紀勝) written by Vương Duy Trinh (王維楨, ?-1908 CE), a Vietnamese official and writer.

Thanh Hoá kỷ thắng
is a booklet written in Classical Chinese about places of interest in Thanh Hóa Province; Vương Duy Trinh probably wrote this book when he was a local official in the Thanh Hóa Province in early 1890s.

One entry of the book talked about Bà Triệu in detail; you can check the entry in the photocopy of the book's manuscript here.

Below is the photo of the page that talked about Bà Triệu, and the texts marked in red is the famous Bà Triệu quote that referred in the Vietnamese first look video.

Spoiler :
screencapture-lib-nomfoundation-org-collection-1-volume-99-page-31-2021-01-24-18_38_03.png


Bà Triệu's famous statement is (largely?) written in Classical Chinese, which reads as
嫗曰:但欲乘風破浪,斬長鯨於東溟,扫清海宇,極斯民於□□*,豈效世人頓首曲腰,作人婢妾为□*?

Translation - The Ẩu** said: I just wish to ride the winds and rip though the waves, to behead the long whales in the Eastern Sea, to sweep clean the realm within the seas, to help (?) the people from □□; how can I imitate other people, bow my head and bend my back, to become other's slave and concubines and □?***

*I can't read these words so I marked them as □. They are probably obscure forms of Chinese characters, or even Chữ Nôm, which I don't have any knowledge of. Probably need to check with @Andrew Johnson [FXS] as I am sure he can read Chữ Nôm.
**Ẩu is Triệu's title in Vietnamese and Chinese, which literally means "old women" or "granny", but is used as a respectful title here.
***Judging from the general meaning of this sentence, I think the translation posted by @notNamed is actually the translation of this sentence from the manuscript.


The line 斬長鯨於東溟 is the origin of the "whale quote", which literally translates as "to behead the long whales in the Eastern Deep". It is a typical stock phrase about "killing whales" - again, whale just means evil beings here, doesn't mean any specific types of whales - in traditional Chinese writings.
 
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