[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[notNamed]

But how do you know Ca kinh wasn't applied to orcas much later? Would she even be aware of them?

Yeah, no. We've got the original text and that calls it 長鯨 (so "trường kình") and if 8housesofelixir is to believed, it's a standard literary trope.
Likewise, kình is a Middle Chinese word, Middle Chinese would come into existence centuries after her death so she couldn't have called it Cá kình herself.
The word for whale in Vietnamese I could find that isn't Chinese in origin is cá voi (fish elephant) which is reconstructed as [a-kaːʔvɔːj] some 500 years after her time, which is where I'd end this small excursion into the languages concerned.

 

[Jeppetto]

I really hope it will just end up teasing Mug-Creating Industry you can make out of Whales in the upcoming Mode for the extra mile in the joke.

If it's teasing some Native Northern Civ, might be better, more space for another Pass.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The orca sticker on the bottom of the mug is literally the manufacturer's logo for the maker of the mug. It's not some secret message unless they intentionally sourced their custom mugs from that company just so the label would have the right image. It's incredibly implausible.

Likewise, Grant's toque is not a hint. Canada is already in the game.

 

[cuc]

嫗曰：但欲乘風破浪，斬長鯨於東溟，扫清海宇，極斯民於□□*，豈效世人頓首曲腰，作人婢妾为□*？

Translation - The Ẩu** said: I just wish to ride the winds and rip though the waves, to behead the long whales in the Eastern Sea, to sweep clean the realm within the seas, to help (?) the people from □□; how can I imitate other people, bow my head and bend my back, to become other's slave and concubines and □?***

*I can't read these words so I marked them as □. They are probably obscure forms of Chinese characters, or even Chữ Nôm, which I don't have any knowledge of. Probably need to check with @Andrew Johnson [FXS] as I am sure he can read Chữ Nôm.

1. Rather than 極, which makes no sense as a verb here, the character should be 拯 "rescue". The next word should be 塹壕 - "moat, trench".

Together, the phrase is 拯斯民於塹壕: "to save our people from the deep trench."

2. The second word you don't recognize seems like 邪 to me, equivalent to 耶 (yé in Putonghua), expressing an interrogative mood.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

But still the most important question for that "clue" is how do I get a mug. It's pretty sweet.

 

[cuc]

Reading this thread, I must say this is quite the telephone game we are witnessing here. From a 250 CE insurgent about which we naturally have limited primary sources, to a 1900 CE booklet on local sights that attributed to her a few words like 扫清海宇 "to sweep clean the realm within the seas", which then got translated into "clean up our frontiers", somehow became a blunt "chase away the Wu army", and finally "Drive Out the Aggressors".

All through the misinformation train, from academics to writers' room wordsmiths, nobody actually cared about veracity of the knowledge or the context of its creation; all they wanted is BADASS QUOTES.

 

[Zaarin]

Another evidence which proves that approach is the fact that Vietnamese is the only one among nations all over the world which has consistently worshipped whales.

Literally the entire Pacific Northwest and several Siberian tribes disagree.

 

[8housesofelixir]

1. Rather than 極, which makes no sense as a verb here, the character should be 拯 "rescue". The next word should be 塹壕 - "moat, trench".

Together, the phrase is 拯斯民於塹壕: "to save our people from the deep trench."

2. The second word you don't recognize seems like 邪 to me, equivalent to 耶 (yé in Putonghua), expressing an interrogative mood.

Thank you for the correction! 拯, 塹壕, and 为耶 definitely makes sense. The scribe of Vương Duy Trinh's manuscript used a mixture of typical Classical Chinese, alternative Classical Chinese, and popular simplified Chinese, which makes the reading a bit harder.

 

[AsH2]

But how do you know Ca kinh wasn't applied to orcas much later? Would she even be aware of them?

So we're getting a Latvia civ?
(Jokes aside, I doubt there are any Orcas in Baltic Sea..)

Spoiler Yet again, wiki proves me right.. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#/media/File:Cypron-Range_Orcinus_orca.svg
A world map shows killer whales are found throughout every ocean, except parts of the Arctic. They are also absent from the Black and Baltic seas.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I'm just sad that now, the Philippines aren't getting in. RIP, Philippines...

 

[Jeppetto]

Reading this thread, I must say this is quite the telephone game we are witnessing here. From a 250 CE insurgent about which we naturally have limited primary sources, to a 1900 CE booklet on local sights that attributed to her a few words like 扫清海宇 "to sweep clean the realm within the seas", which then got translated into "clean up our frontiers", somehow became a blunt "chase away the Wu army", and finally "Drive Out the Aggressors".

All through the misinformation train, from academics to writers' room wordsmiths, nobody actually cared about veracity of the knowledge or the context of its creation; all they wanted is BADASS QUOTES.

Basically, she was just ordering new sofa shaped like whale to her seaside mansion, specifically not desiring the workers who brought it last time as they aggresively damaged it on the way, but it got lost in translation. No wonder she looks so angry in the animations, she still wants the sofa.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Hey, guys! I found something they could use for Civ 7 Leaders! If they have the budget...

 

[cain3456]

If Firaxis can separate Macedonia from Greece, then there is no reason for them to keep conflating Germany with the Holy Roman Empire. They are separate entities and should be in the game as such.

 

[Zaarin]

If Firaxis can separate Macedonia from Greece, then there is no reason for them to keep conflating Germany with the Holy Roman Empire. They are separate entities and should be in the game as such.

Very strongly disagree. HRE is German; there's no need for a separate HRE civ. Also, while even adding Macedon was controversial (too. many. Hellenes), thankfully the devs have not yet added Macedonia (i.e., FYROM), to be pedantic.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

. Probably need to check with @Andrew Johnson [FXS] as I am sure he can read Chữ Nôm..

Andrew reads academic writing on Vietnamese history and anthropology (his favorites are Erik Harms, John Phan, Claudine Ang, Keith Taylor, Paul Taylor) but does not claim to be able to read original material in Nom, or even modern Vietnamese. He reads Thai and Lao ("read" here meaning "doesn't need a dictionary and can read for pleasure) and can muddle through Lanna and Burmese (along with Japanese, French, Finnish). But Nom? No, unfortunately.

I was aware, though, of almost all of the dimensions of what "whale / orca / shark" might mean here when looking into Trieu. Of course, could all this be fixed with just saying "vast beasts of the eastern sea?" Also, incidentally, Ivan Small has written on modern-day whale worship in Vietnam, and its new connections with overseas Vietnamese communities!

 

[Birch617]

If Firaxis can separate Macedonia from Greece, then there is no reason for them to keep conflating Germany with the Holy Roman Empire. They are separate entities and should be in the game as such.

I think Austria and Prussia are better "Split" civs for the Germans imo

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If Firaxis can separate Macedonia from Greece, then there is no reason for them to keep conflating Germany with the Holy Roman Empire. They are separate entities and should be in the game as such.

That's what Civ 4 was for.

 

[SMcM]

If so, those whales are far from home... and I'm pretty sure she said sharks, not whales.

It said whales on the video iirc and says orcas on Wikipedia, so I don't think I'm being stupid

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It said whales on the video iirc and says orcas on Wikipedia, so I don't think I'm being stupid

I saw it too. It seems to be translation issues as the quote mentions sharks and whales in other sources.
Plus I think it was edited not long ago and of course anybody can edit Wikipedia and mess with our brains.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

It said whales on the video iirc and says orcas on Wikipedia, so I don't think I'm being stupid

Apologies. I should have done my research first, although as many others have stated it could have referenced things other than sharks.